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Tim Gavrich

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Island Greens
« on: December 26, 2005, 06:49:08 PM »
Has anyone else had enough with the concept of Island greens?

It was novel for a while, but they seem to be everywhere!

It's a nice feaqture when used properly, but I think it only works on par 3s.
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Chris Neff

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2005, 06:55:34 PM »
I agree Tim. I was Assistant Super. at TPC at Sawgrass for 5 years and now am Super at a True Donald Ross and I don't miss It at all. I'm sure it's used more than we can imagine.
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Matt Klein

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2005, 08:34:41 PM »
Tim,

I think it would depend on what you would consider an island green. If you're talking about the hard edge, all-or-nothing a la sawgrass type, absolutely. Argh! !%@#! Those ugly hard lines. Lose them all! Although giving Dye the benefit of the doubt, it does work for stadium golf and it appears easy to maintain (help me out Chris).

On the other hand, island greens surrounded by sand? absolutely not. See the H. Chandler Egan-ization of #7 at PB.
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Mike McGuire

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2005, 08:48:02 PM »
Island greens can be exciting for decent players but they definately don't pass the "how is my Mom going to play this hole" test.

A newer private club in our area (P.B. Dye)  has one...Par 3  100 - 135 yards. It works well but if it was a busy public course it might be a disaster.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2005, 08:51:53 PM by Mike McGuire »
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Kyle Harris

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2005, 08:53:46 PM »
They're particularly annoying when they become a calling card of sorts for the designer. Philly area architect Jim Blaukavitch has two. Coincidentally, one of the clubs is named after the feature (Island Green on Red Lion Road) and the other is Bella Vista in Pottstown. The one at Island Green is on a Par 4. A short hole, that requires a 4-iron off the tee and a wedge to the green.

PB Dye seems to build them a lot, Iron Valley in Lebanon has one.
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Andy Troeger

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2005, 09:19:47 PM »
I used to really like the darn things, probably just from watching the Players Championship, and always was excited about playing courses that had them...but now that I've seen a half-dozen or so of them and didn't care for most I'm no longer so enthused.

The one that I do like is the 80 yard downhill 3rd at River Run GC in Crossville, TN. Its a half wedge to a tiny little island with a swinging bridge to get over to the green. Might be the toughest 80 yard hole in the world...and I love it  ;D (once I'm on the 4th tee)!
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Chris Neff

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2005, 09:43:09 PM »
Matt,
#17 at TPC wasn't difficult to maintan at all. The walkway was plenty big enough for equipment to get in and out. We later took the wooden walk path out and concreted the path for safety. The only thing I hated was the bulkhead on the hole. It was definetly was up keep. I feel like it really fits out there with the whole theme of stadium golf. i can't wait to see how #17 changes for the spectator after the renovation next year.  I know the hole won't change but I do believe that the areas around it will be tweaked for better viewing.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2005, 10:42:35 PM »
I think one of the earliest is the famous "moat hole" at Galen Hall CC, near Reading, PA.    Number 15 has a green that’s surrounded by a ten-foot wide moat. From the back tees, it’s a daunting 193 yards. From the middle tees, it’s a more manageable 148 yards. The course has a good pedigree. The first nine, which opened in 1911, was laid out by Alex Findlay. The second nine, which opened in 1917, was done by  A. W. Tillinghast. Gordon did work in the 1950s lengthining the course from a par 68 to par a par 72 but the 15th remains. The course is home for the Albright College golf team. It's a fun course to play.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2005, 11:40:34 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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Kyle Harris

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2005, 10:44:56 PM »
Steve,

Interesting you bring that hole up. Tillie did another one in our area that's still in existance at The Abington Club, a very similar premise.

It's still there... we should play it this winter. Then head down to Walnut Lane.  :)
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Doug Siebert

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2005, 10:55:51 PM »
What's the oldest TRUE island green par 3?  That is, a hole surrounded by water where you have no layup or bailout, you have to put it on or next to the green and if you fail you are in the water or pretty much unplayable?  The Galen Hall CC hole sounds interesting, but is not really like a modern island green.  I'm sure there must have been a few real island greens back in the Golden Age?
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Brian_Ewen

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2005, 11:03:05 PM »
Guys
Isnt it the case , if a developer hires a "Dye" , then he expects an Island Green ? .

Sure seems like it in the Far East .

Regards.
Brian
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Andy Troeger

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2005, 11:24:38 PM »
Brian,
  None of the ten or so "Dye" courses I've played have an island-green...they're pretty much all midwest courses though. Might just be a "bad" selection on my part.

  For what its worth, I've seen 3 island greens (including the one I previously mentioned) in the 3 Ron Garl courses that I've played. The other two were at Stonehenge (#2, par four, 370 yards give or take) in Warsaw, IN; and Olde Hickory (par 3, I think #17, yardage ???) near Fort Myers, FL.
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Doug Siebert

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2005, 12:03:53 AM »
Never thought about it being a signature of an architect.  Anyone know of any Robert Bruce Harris courses with an island green?  My home course, Finkbine GC in Iowa City, IA has two separate island greens on the par 3 13th (the play switches between those, as well as two separate teeing areas located at about a 60* different angle of approach)  Now I'm kind of curious if he did that anywhere else...
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Mike McGuire

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2005, 12:08:38 AM »
an early island green was the 10th at Key West Golf Club (Langford -1925-NLE)

Daniel Wexler describes-  "Key West's classic hole was the daring and spectacular 340-yard 10th, a genuine showpiece. Doglegging nearly 90 degrees to the left, it proceded first along Stock Island's northern shoreline, then onto an island situated some 25 yards out into the Gulf of Mexico. For mortals, the generous width of the fairway meant that number 10's primary chalange lay in its across-the-water short-iron approach. With the Island being of fairly good size and bunker free, however, one wonders just how many big hitters found the 240-yard carry required to drive it too enticing to pass up"

The tee for the par five 11th was also on the island just east of the green and heading back south. The fairways of the 10th and 11th were continuous adding another unique flair to this corner of the course.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 12:10:54 AM by Mike McGuire »
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Jim Nugent

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2005, 01:25:51 AM »
Here's an idea for the next gimmick in GCA:  island greens that don't just float, but move at ten miles an hour or so.  Gives new meaning to target golf.  

If you want to drive the pro's even more crazy, make the movement and speed erratic.  Then we could really see some fun on Sunday at number 17.

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Matt Kardash

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2005, 01:51:52 AM »
dye has only actually built 2 island greens himself....he gets labeled as the island green guy because he made it famous...
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2005, 09:45:40 AM »
The 9th hole at 150y at The Ocean Course at the Ponte Vedre Inn, designed in 1928 by famed British architect, Herbert Bertram Strong,  is thought to be the first island green, at least according to the resort's website . This  course hosted the 1939 Ryder Cup.

www.pvresorts.com
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kyle Harris

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2005, 10:01:44 AM »
Steve,

You and I are missing big time.

What about the 3rd (old 12th) at Cobb's Creek!?

According to Shackelford, it's one of the oldest in the country from 1917.
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Tim Gavrich

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2005, 10:17:56 AM »
GADZOOKS!

What about #11 at The Creek?  Could it be considered an island (I am only drawing on that picture from the Law & Order: Criminal Intent episode)?
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2005, 10:41:21 AM »
Kyle

Is the 3rd at Cobbs Creek completely surrounded by water? I can't remember.

Another possible is the 7th on the Tillinghast nine at Shawnee on the Delaware. From the pic on the website, I'm not sure.

www.shawneeinn.com

Steve
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2005, 10:55:50 AM »
 Steve,
    No water on the right side of Cobb's #3.
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Kyle Harris

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2005, 11:01:33 AM »
Mike, Steve,

There was at one point water on all sides.

See: Shackelford, Golden Age of Golf Architecture for a picture.
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mike_malone

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Re:Island Greens
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2005, 11:12:34 AM »
 cool!
    I guess I should have my Xmas 2006 book list include that book . I got Hunter's "Links" this year and have already consumed it. It seemed to  be written last week for a GCA thread!
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Kyle Harris

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2005, 11:14:28 AM »
Hunter is a good read.

Considering Geoff's working title for the book was "The Philadelphia School of Architecture," I think you'll find it a worthy read.
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redanman

Re:Island Greens
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2005, 11:36:20 AM »
How many here knew that Nicklaus built a near exact copy of #17 Sawgrass at Jupiter-ritz?  Green abigger, longer club needed.

I know of at least 3 that Dye built.  Add the Wolf at Paiute #15 to the list of PGA West and TPC Sawgrass, just off the top of the noggin'.

Link To Gooooogle Maps pic of Paiute

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