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PThomas

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what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« on: December 26, 2005, 09:49:10 AM »
(FULL DISCLOSURE:  I haven't played it)

everyone I've talked to who's played there RAVES about this course

what makes this course SOOOO good?

pls be as specific as possible

thanks!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2005, 10:31:23 AM »
 For the specifics, simply check out Ran's course review.

    For me it is about a feeling I get at any course. At NGLA it started on the  long walk up to the first tee. This is unusual , so it begins the day with an expectation that more "unusual" is to come. Then you stand on the tee and say " Don't hit the damn clubhouse!".

   As the profile shows, the interest from tee to green continues well into the course. Then builds back up again to the climax.
   I guess it is the way you come down off the the hill to start and go back up at the end. It has a flow that is charming.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2005, 11:17:00 AM by mayday_malone »
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AKA Mayday

Peter Galea

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Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2005, 10:48:28 AM »
Six acres of greens. Three hundred bunkers. Wide fairways. Contouring that is the visual definition of the word. Strategic choices that make it the ULTIMATE chess board.
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"chief sherpa"

George_Bahto

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Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2005, 06:27:01 PM »
Pete: and now NO TREES
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2005, 10:50:08 PM »
"what makes this course SOOOO good?"

Paul:

What makes NGLA so good is probably more all over this website than descriptions of any other golf course. To really understand why it's such good architecture to play just go see it at least. If you do you can't help but understand why it's so good. For starters there's a good deal about it both generally and specifically that's quite different looking than most any other course you've ever seen.

Thomas Paul
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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2005, 09:56:55 AM »
Play it once, got screwed a bunch of times and the proper strategies (if there is any, one, or many) are still unclear in my mind...
I'll have to go back there, walk it, take a lot of notes ('cause you can't remember everything) then play it... It's not a course where one practice round is enough to understand your mistakes... and the severity of some might make you go nuts.


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Punchbowl

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2005, 10:29:21 AM »
That is one of the great things about the course....when you make mistakes and/or hit bad shots....you are still confronted with strategic options even if you are 150 yards short of where you were supposed to hit the ball on, say, a drive.  Few courses have this going on that I know of...usually you just punch the ball up the fairway or out of the woods when you get in trouble.  Here you are almost always presented with options...and it really does make it play differently each time.
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George_Bahto

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Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2005, 10:49:51 AM »
It’s so interesting to me that after all these nearly 100 years (1907 thru 2005) the strategies Macdonald built into his “Dream Course” still intrigue us ......... and the course may still not be “back” to where he eventually wanted it.



The Restoration of The National Golf Links:

My question, during the “restoration” process has been, “to what era are we are restoring the course to? - the early course?” - the middle years? .... (I’ll finish this thought below)”

The “restoration” the National during the Karl Olsen “era” sort of was directed toward the first Walker Cup years, mainly because the most photographic evidence were Walker Cup photos.

The restoration continues today - with the “blessing” of the administration, of course, all based on historical information for the most part - green expansion, fairway expansion, original sand-hill uncovering, total tree removal, bunker reclamation, et al

My question is this: If Macdonald continued to “improve” his course over the more than 25 years after it was first built, would the “best” the NGLA was (in CB’s eyes), was what the course was near the end of his tinkering? - the early 1930's?

And again:

It’s so interesting that after all these nearly 100 years (1907 thru 2005) the strategies Macdonald built into his “Dream Course” still intrigue us!
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Jim Nugent

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2005, 12:08:21 PM »
Does anyone know what the course record is at NGLA?  How do top-notch players score there?  Any elite pro's ever play the course, and if so, how do they fare there?
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redanman

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2005, 12:58:25 PM »
The professionals can shoot 60-62 (I'm sure that Norman shot a 62)  and under certain conditions such as less wind, slower greens, more forgiving pin positions, who knows.  It is not that hard for a proficient golfer to shoot under par there at times, even a 4-5 hcp, but......

NGLA could be set up so no one breaks 80, but it would be ridiculously severe.  

I don't think either end is the point and addresses absolutely nothing about the courses greatness nor uniqueness, and it truly is both.  It is also absolutely visually stunning sans trees.  It is almost spooky.  The loss of aiming and framing references truly enhances and takes NGLA closer to perfection.

I sent Paul an IM the other day with my thoughts and wasn't going to post, but what the hell, here's what I think.
______________________________________________________
What makes it sooooo great?

routing
overall site and topography
long views
holes - individual quality, variety and creativity
lines of play
angles
mostly world-class greens
great bunker placement and variety
use of width to determine strategy
use of hazards to determine strategy
use of green and surrounds to determine strategies
quirk

and of course the experience doesn't hurt
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 01:02:09 PM by redanman® aka BillV »
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2005, 02:07:37 PM »
a couple years back the course record was set by Raymond Floyd at 62 but I'm not sure what it is now - lots of pros have played the course since but ..........


who cares about pro scores at NGLA (and of course, under what conditions) - that's not what National is about (to me)
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2005, 02:11:38 PM »
Gil, great point about options after you've made errors - there's always something "happening"" out there to think about   .....  hate to be repetitious - but the "guy" built the course so long ago
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Punchbowl

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2005, 03:29:52 PM »
Two new "renovations"....The back left of the first green has been raised to possibly allow for a reasonable pin position back there...and the shallow bunker on the right side of the 13th green has been removed to allow for the green to be expanded to that side and possibly offer more pin positions there also.  The 13th has long been in debate about whether the green, at one time, went around that shallow bunker.  On early maps in MacDonald's book...it shows that green doing just that.
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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2005, 06:29:11 PM »
Punchbowl,

I believe the map in CBM's book is dated 1928, which would be long after the golf course first opened.

Is there a plasticine model of the original 13th green ?

George Bahto has a photo or rendering of the 12th green which shows a large horseshoe configuration within the green.

It would be interesting to know when and why changes took place.
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Punchbowl

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2005, 10:39:42 AM »
I am not sure if there is a model of 13 in its original form.
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George_Bahto

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Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2005, 11:00:21 AM »
Here is a picture of 13-green taken from the scan of the Model of the course.

It does not show the internal bunker at all but that may only mean that was the early Macdonald intent and it may or may not have hit the course. Personally I think it did and the bunker was added to make the target "smaller" - duh!

There is a major amount of work to do if the bunker is removed because of the various elevations around the internal-bunker area, however, should not be a problem except it will be a pretty large repair area ........ with the talented super and his staff, should turn out great.

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2005, 11:05:02 AM »
also note there is only one pot bunker to the right of the centerline, not two (looking at the hole from the tee).

I've been trying (for years) to figure out the chronology of events, but there is a lot of missing data (the club cleaned out the basement of NGLA in the 50's - I think models of greens were may have been doen there at the time.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2005, 11:06:34 AM »
the horseshoe feature on 12-green,a t the top of the picture, is very cool.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Punchbowl

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2005, 11:12:22 AM »
Great picture George....the slope of what will be the new part of the green is quite severe over on the right...what they are wondering is if there will be fair pin placement over there....or whether more work will have to be done....This brings the far right bunker into play again also.

Some interesting things come out of your picture....it appears that  the tee for 13 has been moved to the right (when looking at the green) since this model was made....creating a different line of attack with regard to the pot bunker.  

Also, that view of the 12th green is quite something...I can't figure out what was going on there.
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2005, 11:21:49 AM »
on 12, if you look at the green from the right approach - about 75 yards short of the green, you can clearly see that the green was cut away a lot. With the advent of considerably more play over the years the closeness to 13 tee created a safety problem.

On the green itself (today) you can see the remnants of much of the horseshoe feature (though softened over the years) and you can see how the right side of the horseshoe feature really begins to fade away.

There is also a neat little area to the left rear of 12-green that may have been (and may one day occasionally be) a tee. This LOP from this "tee" (to 13-green) is far and away more interesting than from the regular tee and brings into play much better the "lost" portion of the green.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2005, 11:35:30 AM »
"....it appears that  the tee for 13 has been moved to the right (when looking at the green) since this model was made....creating a different line of attack with regard to the pot bunker."

George always thought there was a small tee to #13 to the right of the 12th green (it sure looks like a very small tee in that model), even if the present tee may've always existed. That certainly would change the angle of attack---bigtime. It'd make it a lot harder, in my opinion.

I spent over a half hour looking at the right of #13 last time there. In my opinion only the front would be pinnable in a relatively narrow band right now and if the slope that was there with the bunker was used. To make most of that right area that was in chipping area pinnable would be an interesting undertaking, and they'd have to be very careful, in my opinion. I doubt they could decrease the slope back there by just leveling back there. That'd end up looking weird if they tried to drop that down up into the upslope back there. The other alterrnative would be to raise the whole front up enough to create a gentle enough slope to be pinnable and doing that to match the grade of the back would be tough without messing something up, I'd think.

If any thought at all was given to restoring that bowl on #12 I sure would want to see them not only accurately determine both when and why it was changed but by whom would be nice to know too.

Just putting that bowl back because some think it looks cool from a model is no reason to restore it, in my opinion, particularly since that 12th green the way it is now is really, really good, both to approach and the challenge of putting to various pins if you're in the wrong spot on the green.
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George_Bahto

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Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2005, 11:41:49 AM »
12-green is too small now, in my opinion, to put the feature back in
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2005, 12:15:50 PM »
George:

What, to your knowledge, did Perry Maxwell do at NGLA?

Also, in my opinion, a restoration of NGLA should be geared to that time when Macdonald last worked on the golf course. If Macdonald is to be as admired as he is (and rightly so) for that golf course, it makes no sense at all to not restore the course to what he took it to during his lifetime. Otherwise, what are you going to have but people second guessing Macdonald from some particular point on? How can you do that and why would anyone do that? That doesn't make sense to me. Either you trust what he did there in its entirety or you trust nothing at all.   ;)
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George_Bahto

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Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2005, 08:35:55 PM »
problem is Tom that it is about impossible to tell what "his" last course is/was ......... believe me I've been working on it for a long time

same with the P Max story



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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

corey miller

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Re:what makes NGLA SOOOOO good?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2005, 09:28:07 PM »


Hey bahto, don't you have other things that you could be spending your time on? ;D
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