[Tim Bert]

My other thread on #18 at CPC got me thinking more broadly.  What is the weakest hole you've played on a top caliber golf course?  What makes it stand out?

My own example comes from my personal top 10.  When I played Whistling Straits, I thought #5 stood out as quite contrived and not really belonging with the rest of the course.  It felt like a transition to get me from #4 to #6, and it didn't really flow with the rest of the course.  I walked off of that course thinking, there were 7 or 8 outstanding holes, 9 or 10 really good ones, and one that I really wouldn't care if I ever played again.  

Has any hole ever that this effect on you at a top notch course?

[PThomas]

I haven't played WS in  a few years, Tim....is #5 that weird par 5 around the water??

[Tim Bert]

Yes.  It is a double dogleg with water on the right off the tee and then left as you approach the green.

I'm not sure if there was something in the terrain preventing the hole from being routed parallel to #4 where the golfer kept the lake in full view, but it seems like enough dirt was moved at that course where Dye could have done that if he wanted.  I'm assuming there was some method to his madness there, but I just don't get it.

[PThomas]

you are correct about it not fitting in, which is why I remembered it, probably/unfortunately

[Jason Blasberg]

Ditto on the 5th at WS, funky fish there!

[Tom_Doak]

If Whistling Straits was really a top ten course, that hole would be a fair choice, though in truth it is more of an anachronism than a terrible hole.  It is the way it is, because the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources put its foot down there and told Pete he couldn't obliterate a wetland in that location.

Possibilities from the world's top ten:

Pine Valley:  nada
Augusta National:  2nd
Cypress Point:  18th
Pebble Beach:  12th
Merion:  nada
Sand Hills:  nada
The Old Course:  I'd say the 9th or 10th before I said the 18th
Royal Melbourne:  nada
Royal County Down:  17th, if it hasn't been changed
Ballybunion:  14th

I would have to say the 18th at Cypress is the worst hole on that list.

[Joel_Stewart]

I would have to say the 18th at Cypress is the worst hole on that list.

This thread is on the weakest hole not the worst and the 18th at CPC is not weak.  I would say 5 or 6 is probably the weakest at CPC.

At Pebble #2 as a par 5 more than #12.

I'll agree with Tom that #9  at St. Andrews is weaker than #18.

[Tom_Doak]

Joel:

I use "weak" and "worst" synonymously, and I suspect Tim meant it in the same vein ... the 5th at Whistling Straits is not a great hole but there is plenty of opportunity to make a big number there!

But I would agree with you, the 18th at Cypress Point is a lot of things but it is NOT easy.

[Mark Bourgeois]

the 1st at pebble...woof!

[Brad Klein]

Not sure if Pacific Dunes counts as a top-10 course, though certainly a top-10 Modern, but the par-5 18th just seems to me to be an excuse for getting yardage on the scorecard and getting back to the snackshack/clubhouse. Couldn't say that about any other hole at Pacific Dunes.

[Tim Bert]

I did mean weak with respect to design rather than difficulty.

I also didn't mean to imply that WS was a top 10.  I was just citing an example from my personal top 10 (limited to courses I've played.)

Tom, I appreciate your insight as to why the hole is what it is.  I figured there had to be a reason that what seemed like a more natural routing was avoided.

[Mike Benham]

TOC #18, probably the hands down winner.

Shiv -

Have you played TOC?  

With your self proclaimed vaunted wedge game, I would think that a hole where you can blast driver, guaranteed to be in the fairway, followed by a half wedge shot where you have OB right and long, would be a nail biter for you, frought with the fear of blading that wedge into the Sweaters of Scotland shop ...

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

In defense of the 9th at The Old Course:

What's the cardinal sin going out? Losing the ball to the right, OB.  All of a sudden at the 9th, there's plenty of room on the right with the left-hand rough being the inexcusable mistake.  Just enough switch to keep one from swinging freely from the tee.  Anything less than a well struck ball also suffers the potential embarassment of finding the miniscule End Hole bunker.  

The flat, expansive green is poorly defined by blending in with the playing field, making it surprisingly difficult to get the ball close for an easy birdie.  And indeed there is pressure to pick up a shot as there are ample opportunities to drop one or more on the way home.

Admittedly, the hole is plain - perhaps even stark.  Fortunately one of one of the great vistas in golf lies beyond.  

Mike

[Matt Kardash]

this will tell you everything you need to know about the 5th at WS

(copy and paste the entire link in your browser...it doesn't work properly otherwise)

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/whistlingstraits.html

I don't think the hole as it is is such a bad hole. Maybe it doesn't fit the style fo the course, but it's still a fun hole.

[Kevin_Reilly]

this will tell you everything you need to know about the 5th at WS

(copy and paste the entire link in your browser...it doesn't work properly otherwise)

Link fixed...merry christmas!

[John Kirk]

I'd say #17 Crystal Downs is just as quirky and difficult as #18 Cypress Point, if we're discussing Top 11 courses.

[John Kirk]

I thought #10 at Merion only worked because they grew the grass 8-12 inches long to guard the corner of a 90 degree dogleg.  My host, a strong player, aimed for the green both times and probably made 4-5.  I aimed for the fairway both times, missed both times, and made a 4-5.

That's the thing about "weak" holes.  It is what it is, it's got to be hard somewhere, and you just try to hit the right shot.

[Wayne_Kozun]

In defense of the 9th at The Old Course:

What's the cardinal sin going out? Losing the ball to the right, OB.  All of a sudden at the 9th, there's plenty of room on the right with the left-hand rough being the inexcusable mistake.  Just enough switch to keep one from swinging freely from the tee.  Anything less than a well struck ball also suffers the potential embarassment of finding the miniscule End Hole bunker.  

For most right-handed golfers missing left is rarely something to worry about as most of us are faders and are as likely to hit it left as to get a hole in one.

But in my one round there I did find the End Hole bunker - the only bunker I found all day.

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:  I'd never list one of my own courses in a top ten list.  But several people have told me that 18 at Pacific Dunes is their favorite hole on the course.

John K:  I would totally agree that the 17th at Crystal Downs is harder than the 18th at Cypress Point, and it might be almost as quirky ... but it's not nearly as bad of a golf hole.  If you don't hit it straight, you're dead, but the result is rarely a surprise.  On the 18th at Cypress Point you've got to achieve just the right combination of length and placement off the tee, and it's extremely hard to get a feel for whether you have done it correctly.

[Tim Bert]

Tom,

What would you consider to be the weakest link at Pacific Dunes?  The first time out my least favorite hole was #8, but I really enjoyed it a lot more this summer.  I think that #9 was the least interesting to me this summer.  3 of the 4 rounds we played on the course were to the lower green, and with the summer wind whipping that hole plays pretty straight forward.  I think it is more challenging to the upper when the wind is kicking behind you like it was for us.  To the lower green, I find that you don't need to be as precise off the tee as long as you make solid contact.

Is there a hole on that course that stands out to you today where you you feel like you could have created something better?

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

I guess every course has to have a weakest hole, but I don't know which one is the weakest at Pacific Dunes, and there's still nothing I'd want to change there.

The 8th is one of my favorite holes, just because when we started we didn't have much idea what we were going to do with it [the last 2/3 of the hole was thick trees].  It is one of my favorite greens on the course.  So is the 9th lower green, although you are right, all you've got to do is bust it off the tee when playing to the left green.

[Bill_McBride]

Tim, re: #8 Pacific Dunes - you must have not had an opportunity to play a shot to the right side pin off the bank on the right.  Maybe the most fun shot out there!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

8 at Pacific Dunes is a great hole. 9 TOC is in this category. I think 12 at Pebble is a good hole with 2 being the weakest hole but not in the same league with 9 TOC.

[Eric_Dorsey]

#2 (par 3) @ Oakland Hills - South did nothing for me.  Neither did the ensuing short par-5.  

All the rest were spectacular though!

[Tim Bert]

As I said, I enjoyed #8 much more this summer because I had four chances and I got to play from several spots around the green.

It was just the hole that I remembered the least from our first trip in 2003.  

You have to understand when I say "the least memorable" that I'm talking about a course against which I judge all others I've played.  I could play any of the holes on the course repeatedly without growing tired of them.

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