[Adam_F_Collins]

After reading Jim Thompson's thread regarding the photos of Angel's Crossing (and waiting for it to download), I thought it might be interesting to break this out.

Jim mentions getting a nice cheque for selling the wood which was cleared by the buyer in predefined areas.

Is this a common practice? What are some of the pros and cons? Is it usually a viable option for treed land? How much money does it save? How much does it pay?

[Norbert P]

  Depends on wood species, age, size, and whether it's been prepped silviculturally for lumber. The trees would have to be cut, sorted, and stacked for a fee, and land would have to be assessed for erosion concerns.  Then, a lumber mill may give you a bid. (The market fluctuates just like pork bellies on the Chicago Mercantile)

 BTW. . .what are your main tree stands there in Halifax? Black spruce, Eastern hemlock, white pine?

[michael j fay]

Adam:

I looked into this briefly at a property that is looking at development options.

Essentially it is a harvest of the common trees on the property. The amount of money that will be paid varies fairly dramatically depending on the type of trees and their overall size. I never really got to the pricing but for 200 acres of essentially 60 -100 year old oaks the number could be as high as a half million dollars.

The drawbacks include scheduling and specific cutting.

To find out the real skinny you have to talk with someone who owns a major sawmill and wholesale lumber company.

[paul cowley]

Adam....to assess the timber value of a tract, it should be 'cruised', i.e. appraised, by a professional who can then estimate the timbers value and  what an owner might expect to be paid for the harvest....if its mature enough, there is a return, if its not, it becomes a line item cost to get rid of.

[Jim Thompson]

If you would like, I could put you in touch with our forestry expert.  He just happens to be an investor in Angels Crossing and has been doing this for years for paper companies and mills.  He organized the auction, the trees were bid on individually before they were cut and select logs were auctioned after cutting for veneer.  It is an amazing process to watch and to learn the marking process and bid methods in the woods.  It can be arranged very quickly if needed.  The secondary part, stump cleaning and grinding takes longer, if you want it done for free, but normally within a month of your schedule.  Don't forget - even pallet grade wood is a commodity.

Cheers!
JT

[Adam_F_Collins]

BTW. . .what are your main tree stands there in Halifax? Black spruce, Eastern hemlock, white pine?

In Halifax, it's primarily black spruce. There is also a fair amount of birch and white pine. Nova scotia is quite diverse overall. There are a lot of maple, oak, pine, spruce, birch and beech.

The coast is largely black spruce on rocky terrain and thin soil.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Adam:
When we cleared for the Algonquin in St. Andrews, NB we sold the wood to a local.

He harvested with a huge machine, inventoried etc.

If you phone Blair McLaughlin at Island Coastal Services in Charlottetown, PEI at 902-892-1062 I think he will help you out with names and amounts received etc.

It was quite an operation, sure beat the h out of chain saws.

[Mike_Young]

I haven't seen much $$$ made on trees from clearing a course.  The timber companies can be very sloppy and damage the tops of perimeter trees or other trees that are left standing.  Many do not care to clean up after themselves and most importantly most wish to cut it from the stump which means the grubbing crew has to dig the stumps when clearing the "cleared" land.  It is much easier if the trees can be pushed over and the timber cut from trees lying on the ground.  When the differences in clearing cost are figured it is rare that money can be made by selling the timber vs. just mulching it and getting it out of the way.
JMO
Mike

[jim_lewis]

I have no idea if it is true, but my caddie  at Bandon Trails told me that a considerable portion of the construction costs there were offset by the sale of timber cleared from the site.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I second the sloppy caution.
If you don't mind, the loggers can make some nasty bunkers if they drag the timber off the property.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

I third it.  Lets put it this way - if you put out an alternate bid for contractors to clear and dispose of trees themselves, and an alternate bid to have an independent company harvest the timber and the contractor to merely clean up afterwords, your bid for total clearing will be about $2200 per acre.  For clean up only, it will be at least 10% more.

Scheduling is another issue. Most of these timber companies are small outfits that work at their own pace.  Sometimes the time lost costs even more money.

On my projects, I can't recall ever getting more than a couple of hundred an acre from those companies.  So, the Owner nets about $30K, but pays almost as much for clean up.  And who knows the future settling costs......While it sounds like a great, environmentally friendly idea, you really have to plan ahead.....

[Jay Flemma]

Another thing you can do is TRADE it for something you DO need.  Example...at Black Rock, Brian Silva had tons of blown up rock that he had to move and didn't need, but didn't have any sand...just so happened a guy on the project knew someone who needed all that blown up rock, and had loads of sand lying around.

Presto, chango, problem solved, "start the truck!" and everybody's happy.

Now if the MTA and Transit Workers could do the same thing I wouldn't have to get up a 5Am to get to work every day...

[Jim Thompson]

There you go guys!  Now you know why golf costs so much.  Absenteeism and lack of accountability are no way to manage a construction site or any other business setting.  Business is like the fair drawing, you must be present to win!  We paid zero, nad, zip out of pocket for corridor clearing.  At tops we had another $5k in our clean up efforts, which consisted mostly of bury and burn holes.  Our site was left in good shape as well.  Our check was very good from lumber and almost as good for the mulching.  Mom always said if I left a mess in the living room she'd fan my pants.  Needless to say I picked up my toys.

Cheers!

JT

[ForkaB]

I have no idea if it is true, but my caddie  at Bandon Trails told me that a considerable portion of the construction costs there were offset by the sale of timber cleared from the site.

Jim

I once had a client who owned a lot of very old growth timber near the Oregon coast, and all he had to do was cut down one or two 100+ footers each year to feed his extended family.

[Greg Beaulieu]

In Halifax, it's primarily black spruce. There is also a fair amount of birch and white pine. Nova scotia is quite diverse overall. There are a lot of maple, oak, pine, spruce, birch and beech.

The coast is largely black spruce on rocky terrain and thin soil.

Adam, I believe at the proposed new Brightwood site there is a fair amount of birch. I haven't walked the property so I don't know for certain but from driving past and observing at a distance it seems little of it (along with the evergreens there) is of any substantial size, which I would think would limit its value somewhat.

Our habitat here is far different from places in the southern US. For example a few years ago when I played Stonehouse in Williamsburg, Virginia, the most striking thing was the size of the trees in and around the course. They were huge, specimen deciduous trees that were quite magnificent. The rocky terrain here tends to keep those in the minority in these parts.

[Lester George]

Ditto what Jeff Brauer said.  I've tried many different ways to make a profit on timber for my clients and it rarely works out.  I ended up having to burn a valuable amount of timber on one job because the timber company could not get it off the site fast enough.  Sad but true, you may reduce your clearing cost by offering to give the timber away, but you will find those "savings" have consequences in time and logistics.

Lester

[Mike McGuire]

If your course is tempted to do any "selective logging" for cash you might want to do some`research.

This practice is an open door for any invasive species in your area to take over.

In SE Wisconsin I know of entire of entire woodlands (Southern Red Oak - Mixed Forest) that were taken over by the invasive "Garlic Mustard " after selective logging. This woodland is no longer self sustaining as the native understory cannot compete.

Sad... A couple of extra bucks and disaster.

The owners are good people . They just didn't know.

[Steve_Roths]

Bandon Trails cost $7 million to build and they recouped $4 million of that by selling the trees. Those are the numbers I have heard from certain sources.

[Mike_Young]

Steve,
How could Bandon Trails cost 7 million unless coore/Crenshaw had a 5 million dollar fee?
And I also would like to know what land sells for out there.  
I would assume they cleared no more than 150 acres for the 18.  Would it be fair to say that they received aprox $27,000 per acre for timber?
I am not saying you are incorrect but I have never seen people make money on timber for a golf course.
I know what I can build a course for and if what you say is true then I could build a course in that sand and sell the timber and keep a about 1.5 million.  
If you have the info a breakdown of the cost would be great.
Mike

[Adam_F_Collins]

Interesting stuff so far, gentlemen.

I like the idea of not SPENDING so much on clearing - so if selling the timber doesn't actually MAKE money, but ends up costing less to get the job done - that seems like it's still a good idea...

[Michael Hayes]

I have managed about 8 tree projects on our existing course, we have built roads for access then had to take the roads out... all told I have spent about 5K to remove approximentally 500 trees over the years...It does take longer and I have invested alot of time cultivating relationships, but with a little work trees don't have to cost a lots of money...

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