News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cart paths
« on: December 18, 2005, 10:31:49 AM »
(This is a breakout from Paul Cowley's "Folly" thread.)

Thinking about the cart path thing. The only time you hear them discussed is in the context of hiding them. They are treated as a scar on the face of a golf course. But, surely, there must be ways to convert them from a design liability to a design opportunity.

Finding ways to integrate cart paths into playing strategies - as is often the case with roads and paths on UK courses - ought to be something American architects jumped on with both feet years ago. Cart paths are a uniquely American design problem. Start to finish paved cart paths are a distinguishing feature of American golf courses. Yet American designers seem only to view them as something to cover up, like bad acne.

Why aren't they integrated into the course, as roads, paths and walls are in the UK?  Why don't they have more of a role in playing strategies?

Because they are "unnatural"? There isn't much on a typical US residential development course that isn't unnatural. Like houses, pools, backyard bbq grills, decks and chaise longs.

Car paths aren't going away. I would think architects would believe it important to find more imaginative ways to integrate them into modern courses.

The 10th at Crabapple (ATL, Fazio/Eger) is a hole where a cart path functions - sort of - like the Road on a reverse Road Hole. I'm not sure it works very well, but the cart path does come into play, for all the right reasons. My guess is that it was an intended feature.

The more I've thought about the 10th at Crabapple, the more I both liked it and the more it struck me that it was a gutsy design. Do people know of other similar examples of thinking out of the box about cart paths?

Bob
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 10:37:48 AM by BCrosby »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Cart paths
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2005, 10:37:44 AM »
BCrosby,

I find your suggestion of integrating cart paths into playing strategies frightening.

What's next bathrooms and half-way houses ? ;D

I agree that cart paths aren't going away, and that they do serve several functions, but, like drainage pipes, I'd rather hide them then bring them into focus, and worse yet, make them an integral component in the play and strategy of the hole.

This is clearly one of your worst ideas. ;D
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 10:38:05 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2005, 10:44:23 AM »
Au contraire, mon ami.

You lay 5 or 6 miles of paved surface on a golf course, its single biggest feature, and the only thing people can think to do with it is hide it?

Maybe not you and maybe not me, but someone, somewhere must have a better idea than that.  

Bob
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 10:59:05 AM by BCrosby »

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2005, 11:14:28 AM »
My first thought would be to think out a Master Plan which might start out with only partial paths to establish best use areas.

Consider that most golfers are right-handed, and most golfers slice.  For speed of play, shouldn't the paths tend to be on the right side ?

A path near a hazard might unfairly exaggerate the result of a poor shot.  Same is true if the path is too near the green.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2005, 11:30:56 AM »
(This is a breakout from Paul Cowley's "Folly" thread.)
...
Finding ways to integrate cart paths into playing strategies - as is often the case with roads and paths on UK courses - ought to be something American architects jumped on with both feet years ago. Cart paths are a uniquely American design problem. Start to finish paved cart paths are a distinguishing feature of American golf courses. Yet American designers seem only to view them as something to cover up, like bad acne.
...
Bob
I think the place where this analogy falls down is the ubiquity of the cart path on the course. Is there a course in the UK where a road is integrated into every hole? For that matter, is there a hole in the UK where a burn is integrated into every hole. A road as a hazard on a few holes adds interest. A road as a hazard on every hole creates monotony.

In all likely hood the road was there before the course. The cart path is NOT there before the course.

You knew I was going to respond to this one didn't you Bob? :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Cart paths
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2005, 11:37:09 AM »
BCrosby,

Most architects don't want to be involved with cart path routing as it has the potential for additional liability.

Cart paths serve to remove traffic from areas of play, and now you want to place them in play.

As I said, this is one of your worst ideas.

Before Doak and other architects see what you've written, might I suggest that you delete the topic ?  ;D

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2005, 11:37:25 AM »
Bob,
I do hope you came up with this topic while at home in those pajamas with the feet in them and not in the office on a sunday morning eating donuts.
Can drainage count as a use for cartpaths?  Many architects try to incorporate drainage into the paths and let them work to keep water off of the hole.  Me....I think there will be a day when the cart manufacturers  have a tire that will not damage as it does today and hopefully cart paths will be eradicated.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2005, 11:40:40 AM »

A path near a hazard might unfairly exaggerate the result of a poor shot.  Same is true if the path is too near the green.
There's that fair word again! I must apologize for our overuse of the word. We know as students of gca that it is considered to be inappropriate and not to be said in polite company. We must learn to say and write "overly penal" instead. Please forgive us for our lapses in the future and substitute "overly penal" in your mind when we write "unfair".

If I might ask, what is the adverbial form of overly penal? Overly penaly exaggerate is quite dissonate to my ear.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2005, 11:42:47 AM »
....I think there will be a day when the cart manufacturers  have a tire that will not damage as it does today and hopefully cart paths will be eradicated.  
Ah Mike, I believe that would be a hovercraft.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 11:43:52 AM »
Pat,
Don't jump to soon...it works well with that maintenance Melt stuff...t would be extemely firm and fast.....just needs more of a brown look and that can now be acheived.....
Look...this whole thread is the results of one of those Atlanta Chrstmas parties  Bob attended last night where they were pouring licker that had no tax on it.  But the lead content was high......he should be ok in another couple of hours....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 11:44:30 AM »
Garland,
Could be but they are alsoworking on a tire....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

wsmorrison

Re:Cart paths
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2005, 11:45:42 AM »
Mike,

I hate carts and almost never use them (unless I'm playing with some elderly friends).  

I seem to remember reading something about single person carts.  Would less weight and more efficient traffic counter the increase in numbers of carts?  With all the back and forth driving for two players, maybe there would be reduced overall useage and damage.  What do you think?  

If they could come up with lighter carts (single or double) and better tires, the overall maintenance costs might be significantly reduced and the courses in better overall shape.  It may save in  the amount of cart paths as well.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 11:47:19 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Cart paths
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2005, 11:47:49 AM »
Mike Young,

You're right.

Expand them and make them putting greens.

Fast and firm, with contours and slope, and you can paint them any color you'd like.

Although Bob will have to work on the cupping dilema. ;D


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2005, 11:49:01 AM »
Mike,

The balloon tires on my Honda FourTrax would be much easier on the course than golf cart tires. But then, if I hit the throttle hard, the turf, she be a flyin'.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2005, 11:52:42 AM »
Pat,
We can preset a few plugs in each green.
But it will definitely bring back the bump and run, not as an option but a necessity.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Troy Alderson

Re:Cart paths
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2005, 11:54:33 AM »
Mike,

The only option for cart manufacturers is to put the cart on big balloon tires to reduce the compaction.  It is a viable option these days with companies selling accessories for the carts, lift kits, floatation tires.  But then you get a golfer acting like they are off roading and may drive everywhere.  I have never liked paved cart paths and prefer loose cart paths that require a little maintenance.  Gravel cart paths or what ever material is used looks more natural when turf is growing among the rocks.  Power rake the paths once in a while and you are good.  Once a year heavy maintenance may be needed.  Gravel cart paths blend into the scenary more easily and do not pop out like asphalt and concrete paths, that you must hide somehow.  If we are maintaining the golf course for a more natural look, than having loose gravel in the turf here and there should not effect mowing equipment.  Especially if the gravel path is also hidden as much as possible and out of play.

Of course, we would all like to see the end of golf carts but such is the world.

Troy

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2005, 11:56:28 AM »
As further evidence that it was the moonshine that brought Bob to start this, it was the golf cliches thread that mentioned "fair" not the folly thread.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2005, 11:59:40 AM »
Troy,
I agree on a wider tire for compaction but they are also working on a split tire that doesn't tear in turns etc.  
And ...yep....gravel when you can.....I also think that some of the new aerifiers make it where high use areas can be maintained much easier(especially here in the red clay).....I just did a course where the owner allowed paths just a tees and greens with a fan out section from tee to fairway.....  We made sure the area in front of the fan out was well drained and capped so as to  help with compaction....I hope it works.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2005, 12:06:15 PM »
Garland,
I do think the moonshine had an effect.
I heard he had been to three Waffle Houses this morning and he had a "Piss on Easy-Go" decal on the rear window of his Volvo. He was trying to find someone to help him fix two tires on his house.  He usually does all of this work himself.  
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 12:07:22 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2005, 12:21:15 PM »
Bob, Bob, wherefore art thou?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2005, 12:35:05 PM »
Jeez, such negativity. Even attacks on my stylish pajamas. Are there no limits? :)

But despite yourselves, some good ideas have already been given.

For one, thought ought to be given to paths made from something other than concrete or asphalt. If paths are a necessary evil, why not minimize the eye sore? Why not make them of different stuff? Something less hard? Which in turn makes it more feasible to bring them into play in more situations.

For example, the composition of the Road on the Road Hole is some sort of gravel/hardpan mixture. I don't know for sure. But alternate surface materials are worth exploring.

If the single biggest feature of a new course is something hideous AND artificial, why isn't some architect out there distinguishing himself by finding different ways to build this hideous artificial feature? And maybe also different ways to integrate it into the course?  

I remain to be convinced that the problem is insuperable.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 12:39:53 PM by BCrosby »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2005, 12:41:34 PM »
How about making the paths out of artificial turf? It works on football fields. :) For that matter, make the whole course out of artificial turf! No need for paths, problem solved!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2005, 12:52:53 PM »
Sorry, I had to step out to the back yard to kill a chicken for supper and visit the privy down in the holler. I'm back now.

Garland - Astroturf is an idea. I'm not a big fan, but it is used in spots at ANGC.

Mike Young, when he had a few moments between Slim Jims, has mentioned to me that there are soft, aggregate type materials through which grass will grow. I understand they are harder to maintain. But the cost benefit analysis ought to include not just maintenance expenses, but benefits to the look and interest of the course when such aternatives are used. Plus, it would seem to me that such materials would open up uses for cart paths that extend beyond being just a surface for carts.

Bob

« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 12:54:19 PM by BCrosby »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2005, 01:12:12 PM »
...
Garland - Astroturf is an idea. I'm not a big fan, but it is used in spots at ANGC.
...
Oh, oh! If they use it at ANGC, it can't be good for golf! :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cart paths
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2005, 01:22:39 PM »
It's not just carts and their paths, it's the weight of traffic.  On any British course where carrying is the norm there is always huge wear in places where features such as bunkers, trees etc direct walkers all to use the same bit of turf.  The same problem occurs where cart and trolley drivers have the freedom to drive on fairways in order to keep you out of precious rough (such as happens on heathland courses).  They don't damage the fairways because the use is spread, but they cause compaction, erosion and damage in the areas immediately around the tee (because we all leave it in the same way) and around the green, because we all drive our carts or pull our trolleys in the same direction towards the next tee.  If someone could find a way of varying our leaving tees and circumnavigating greens there would be little problem, especially if fairways had to be kept firm enough to carry carts and trolleys.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back