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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #250 on: December 19, 2005, 07:13:22 PM »

The Alps at Camargo is similiar to the one at St. Louis, with the berm behind the green.

Tom MacWood,

When was CMB given credit for designing Camargo ?
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 07:13:45 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #251 on: December 19, 2005, 07:28:01 PM »
Pat
Camargo was built by Macdonald's protege Raynor. He was familiar with Macdonald's pet holes and copied them often. The point being the Alps at Merion is similar to holes built by both Macdonald and Raynor.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #252 on: December 19, 2005, 07:28:38 PM »
SPDB,

According to George Bahto, "Alps" holes are par 4's with lengths of between 400 and 435 yards.

I thought the 5th at St Louis was a 491 yard par 5 with a punchbowl green.

Isn't the name of the 5th hole at St Louis, "punchbowl" ?

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #253 on: December 19, 2005, 07:30:35 PM »
SPDB,

Are you sure that the green you refer to at St Louis isn't a punchbowl green, and not a green with a seperate, steep, offset berm.

Yes. Quite. There is a punchbowl/alps hole earlier in the round.

Quote
Where is the rear berm on the Alps hole you cited at Piping Rock ?

Where is the rear berm? Is that a serious question?  ;D

Quote
Does it in any way resemble the rear berm at the 3rd hole at NGLA ?

It is not a steep as the berm at NGLA. A berm nevertheless.

Pat -
In your response to DavidM. you say that he's conveniently left out several alps like holes designed by CBM. What are these?

Where is the alps hole at The Creek you refer to?

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #254 on: December 19, 2005, 07:34:19 PM »
"It is no longer a private issue...."

Tom MacW:

Really? So then it's a public issue? So what happens if I don't tell you who said it? Do I get a subpoena for slander or something? Do the police investigate to see if they can figure out who said it?

"you posted it on the Internet..."

Ah, yes, the INTERNET, that world-wide uncontrolled, uncontrollable information stream.

".....presumably to make a point."

Yes, presumably.

"It is only proper that you identify the source..."

Uh Oh, is Miss Manners going to get pissed at me?

"....otherwise it is nothing but an unattributed attack, and for all we know you made it up."

True, but as you say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  

;)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 07:35:35 PM by TEPaul »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #255 on: December 19, 2005, 07:35:40 PM »
SPDB,

According to George Bahto, "Alps" holes are par 4's with lengths of between 400 and 435 yards.

I thought the 5th at St Louis was a 491 yard par 5 with a punchbowl green.

Isn't the name of the 5th hole at St Louis, "punchbowl" ?

I think it might be. What does George have to say about the ~400 yard Alps hole (the 18th).  ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #256 on: December 19, 2005, 07:48:25 PM »

Pat
Camargo was built by Macdonald's protege Raynor. He was familiar with Macdonald's pet holes and copied them often.


YES, but Dave Moriarty refutes that theory in posts # 230 and 238.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read those posts of his more carefully.

Is the hole you refer to at Camargo an Alps or a Punchbowl ?
Or, a combination.

To state that the feature at the rear of the 7th green at Camargo, that you call a berm, is comparable to the rear features found at NGLA, Prestwick or Yale is a joke.

I'd suggest you go back and rehone those fine research skills you claim to possess and come back with a more genuine
answer.
[/color]

The point being the Alps at Merion is similar to holes built by both Macdonald and Raynor.

Which ones ?
Could you name the golf courses and holes that you're claiming are similar to the "Alps" at Merion ?
[/color]

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #257 on: December 19, 2005, 07:56:31 PM »
TE
Don't worry about it. We don't need to know...that you continue post what others have shared with you in private is the more disturbing fact.

PS: Your last sentence makes no sense.

Pat
What are you arguing?

The hole at Camargo (and St. Louis) is an Alps/punchbowl...which is what   the hole at Merion appears to be.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 08:02:24 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #258 on: December 19, 2005, 08:01:38 PM »
From Tom MacWood:

"Pat
Camargo was built by Macdonald's protege Raynor. He was familiar with Macdonald's pet holes and copied them often. The point being the Alps at Merion is similar to holes built by both Macdonald and Raynor."

Pat:

Have you ever seen this kind of bullshit architectrual "a posteriori" reasoning in your life?? :)

Tom MacWood is definitely a big believer in "the nail that fell out of the shoe of the King's horse" scenario----even if the nail falling out is complete speculation.  ;)

I wonder why that 10th green at Merion was removed. Do you think it was because the green was on the wrong side of Ardmore Ave, or do you think it was because the green had a big ugly horse-shoe like berm behind it, or maybe because it was inspired by Macdonald or his protege Raynor?

Do you think all greens that had banks or berms immediately behind them were all copies of Macdonald or Raynor?

Man, in that case there sure were a lot of greens with berms or banks immediately behind them before most anyone had  heard of C.B. Macdonald, the architect! Or do you think it was a "classical" Greek or Roman thing, and pagan, or Victorian or a result of the Industrial Revolution? Or was it Gothic and an influence of the A/C Movement?

We must know all these things, don't you think, Pat, because if we do it may be essential to rename an "Age" or "Era" because of it don't you think?  

;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #259 on: December 19, 2005, 08:09:15 PM »
SPDB,

Are you sure that the green you refer to at St Louis isn't a punchbowl green, and not a green with a seperate, steep, offset berm.

Yes. Quite. There is a punchbowl/alps hole earlier in the round.

So you contend that he built two Alps holes on one course ?
That's the first time I've heard that theory.

Certainly, you can't call the earthworks behind the 18th green a berm.  A slight incline that NEVER declines in elevation behind the high point, but it's definitely not a berm.

To say that the structures behind the # 5 green at Camargo and behind the # 18 green at St Louis are berms is intellectually dishonest and disengenuous.
[/color]

Quote
Where is the rear berm on the Alps hole you cited at Piping Rock ?

Where is the rear berm? Is that a serious question?  ;D

Yes.
[/color]
Quote
Does it in any way resemble the rear berm at the 3rd hole at NGLA ?

It is not a steep as the berm at NGLA. A berm nevertheless.

Does it strongly resemble the earthworks behind the 3rd green at NGLA ?   Or does it fall into the Camargo and St Louis category ?
[/color]

Pat -
In your response to DavidM. you say that he's conveniently left out several alps like holes designed by CBM. What are these?

Where is the alps hole at The Creek you refer to?
The 15th, the Plateau/alps.

It's a hybrid, like the punchbowl/alps you refer to at St Louis.
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 08:09:39 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

DMoriarty

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #260 on: December 19, 2005, 08:10:28 PM »
Here is a bit of what "Far and Sure" said about Merion in 1913 in the American Golfer . . .
Note the reference MacDonald's involement as an advisor, as well as the attempt to reproduce the Eden green . . .
 
Ever since golf was introduced in
Philadelphia, the city has been in great
need of a course such as Merion has
produced, or, I should say, is producing,
for the work is still in its early
stages. I had heard much of the plans
and reports of the progressing work,
but not until a. month ago did I find
the opportunity of seeing it. Two
years ago, Mr. Chas. B. Macdonald,
who had been of great assistance in an
advisory way,
told me that Merion
would have one of the best inland
courses he had ever seen, but every
new course is "one of the best in the
country" and one must see to believe
after trying it out. I had hoped that
it was as good as reported, for it appeared
to be the one great chance to
provide Philadelphia with a real championship
course.
. . .
It required but a glance and
a few steps on the turf to convince
me that the quality was there and the
putting greens were excellent, considering
their age. Everything indicated
careful, intelligent preparation and
painstaking development.
. . .
Mr. Wilson visited
many prominent British courses last
summer, searching for ideas, many of
which have been used. For example,
an attempt to reproduce the Eden
green at St. Andrews has been made
on the fifteenth
and, in my opinion, it
has resulted in one of the few failures
The hole in question is a two-shotter
and the sloping green is so keen and
barren of undulations that the player
is practically forced to "skittle" his
approach in fear of getting above the
hole. Many of the imported ideas of
hazard formation are good, and the
grassy hollows of Mid Surrey have
been well introduced. On some of the
sand mounds I noticed the growing of
something which looked suspiciously
like the bents of Le Touquet.

. . .
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 08:12:01 PM by DMoriarty »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #261 on: December 19, 2005, 08:13:51 PM »
"TE
Don't worry about it."

I don't.

"We don't need to know..."

That's nice. I'm glad you're comfortable with who "We" are and what we don't need to know. On the other hand, maybe everyone should just decide that for themselves.

"....that you continue post what others have shared with you in private is the more disturbing fact."

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought it was only a bummer if someone told someone else who someone was who told told them something in private. A guy in Merchantville NJ just came to my mind for some odd reason.

"PS: Your last sentence makes no sense."

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #262 on: December 19, 2005, 08:16:43 PM »

Pat
What are you arguing?

The hole at Camargo (and St. Louis) is an Alps/punchbowl.

I'm stating that the hole at Camargo doesn't possess the large earthwork berm behind the green which Dave Moriarty insists is necessary in the design and classification of an Alps hole.

Earthworks that would be similar to either the 12th at Yale or the 3rd at NGLA.
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...which is what the hole at Merion appears to be.

In what way do you believe the hole at Merion appears to be an Alps hole ?

Have you seen it in person ?
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DMoriarty

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #263 on: December 19, 2005, 08:18:43 PM »
Patrick, have you ever noticed that you become quite persnickety when you are wrong on the broad issue?

Quote
Dave Moriarty insists is necessary in the design and classification of an Alps hole.

I said no such thing.

Surely it would be downright silly to build an artifical berm where the green backed up to a natural hill which served the same purpose.  
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 08:22:03 PM by DMoriarty »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #264 on: December 19, 2005, 08:32:29 PM »
"Here is a bit of what "Far and Sure" said about Merion in 1913 in the American Golfer . . .
Note the reference MacDonald's involement as an advisor, as well as the attempt to reproduce the Eden green . . ."

Yes, how astute of you. The fact that Hugh Wilson and most of his " Merion committee" (all of whose names we have) spent a couple of days at NGLA consulting with and being advised by Macdonald BEFORE Wilson sailed to GB and spent six months there studying architecture, drawing etc, is only all over the Merion history books and all over this website as well.

That's right, they say in a loose sense Wilson (and committee) conceptually copied the "Eden" on the 15th at Merion. The green seemed to be a bit too back to front tilting back then when Travis ("Far and Sure") said that in the American Golfer. It still is a bit too back to front tilting, in the opinion of some. Edouardo Molinari probably isn't one of them who thinks that. He stuck his approach about 15 feet under a mid-right pin on that hole in August 2005 and rammed the putt home for a birdie to win the US Amateur.

Did you know about Francis's brainstorm in the middle of the night when he realized Merion could trade land across Club House rd. and pick up the land which is the 15th green and the 16th tee which allowed the 15th hole and the famous 16th "Quarry" hole to come into existence?

That's in the history books too but you are coming up with some great material to post on this site recently anyway, photos, drawings, text etc even if most have heard about it but have not actually seen it before.

Keep it up!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 04:56:06 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #265 on: December 19, 2005, 08:40:57 PM »
Sharing sensative research privately with two close friends and posting  private messages on the worldwideweb are two different things...but maybe not in your mind. The latter is usually considered bad form.   :-X

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #266 on: December 19, 2005, 08:48:23 PM »
SPDB,

Are you sure that the green you refer to at St Louis isn't a punchbowl green, and not a green with a seperate, steep, offset berm.

Yes. Quite. There is a punchbowl/alps hole earlier in the round.

So you contend that he built two Alps holes on one course ?
That's the first time I've heard that theory.


Pat - The 5th is "Punchbowl," the 18th is "Alps," I was only trying to help you clear up your confusion of the two. Would you say that Yale has two Alps?

Quote
Where is the rear berm on the Alps hole you cited at Piping Rock ?

Where is the rear berm? Is that a serious question?  ;D

Yes.
[/color]

Ok. The rear berm is at the rear of the green.

Quote
Does it in any way resemble the rear berm at the 3rd hole at NGLA ?

It is not a steep as the berm at NGLA. A berm nevertheless.

Does it strongly resemble the earthworks behind the 3rd green at NGLA ?   Or does it fall into the Camargo and St Louis category ?
[/color]

Who cares? Do you think the 3d at Piping Rock STRONGLY resembles the 4th at NGLA? Even though the former has 2 bunkers, while the latter has 5? These are template holes, not exact replicas

Pat -
In your response to DavidM. you say that he's conveniently left out several alps like holes designed by CBM. What are these?

Where is the alps hole at The Creek you refer to?
The 15th, the Plateau/alps.

It's a hybrid, like the punchbowl/alps you refer to at St Louis.
[/color]

Pat, Now you've revealed yourself. The 15th at The Creek is a hogsback/double plateau hole (it is called hunchback, i think), if it is indeed a hybrid at all. It was a trick question, because there is no alps hole hole at The Creek.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 08:49:35 PM by SPDB »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #267 on: December 19, 2005, 09:05:35 PM »
Pat
Like the Alps/punchbowl it has a birm fronting the green and birm behind the green...creating a blind shot and a punchbowl affect. It also has the traditional bunker fronting the green.

I suspect when Macdonald and Raynor did not have a large natural landform to utilize they resorted to the Alps/punchbowl...the Alps/puchbowls at St. Louis and Camargo sits on relatively level gound.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #268 on: December 19, 2005, 09:39:46 PM »


Craig Disher,

I don't believe the photo you posted, taken from the 6th green and looking across the 17th hole toward the 10th hole provides clear evidence with respect to the size or configuration of any features located behind the 10th green.
But, you're far more skilled at analyzing that type of information than I am.

Pat,
I think the berm is so pronounced that it would be visible from a good distance away. The 3D stereoscope image shows that it's pretty large and well higher than any surrounding feature.

I've marked 3 features on the photo, 2 bunkers and the berm, and then tried to show how they would have aligned on an aerial view of the area.





It's not convincing evidence, especially since the photo shows the course during construction. But based on the direction of the photo, there's nothing else in that line except the berm behind the #10 green. I thought the ridge might have been the alps feature in front of the green but the shape is all wrong - the alps is a large dome. The ridge in the photo has a depression in the middle of it which I believe is the green.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #269 on: December 19, 2005, 09:54:02 PM »
Craig Disher -
There is no need to try to explain the ground level shot. The aerial shows a pronounced horseshoe shaped berm. You can see it casting a shadow on the side opposite the green. Anyone who argues that it might not have existed, is ignoring what was quite obviously there.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #270 on: December 19, 2005, 10:35:29 PM »

First Patrick, let me clarify something.  I am not calling the berm behind the greens at Prestwick or NGLA the alp, or alpinization.   I am just noting that it is a feature of both greens, on Alps holes.

I'd say it CAN be a feature, not that it IS a feature.
[/color]


I've often wondered if the large rear berm at # 3 at NGLA wasn't there for two purposes.
1  To act as a backstop or safety net for errant shots given the long and blind approach into that green.
2  To act as a protective barrier to those on the 4th tee.

I think MacDonald would beg to differ, or at least beg to offer another more strategic purpose.
I don't think he would, or does
[/color]

Here he is in 1914 in GI&OL, writing about the Alps in Prestwick in his article on NGLA's alps.  He seems to attach significant importance of the possibility of the golfer having a tough third with a downhill lie . . .

Read the passage you quoted more carefully.
And, with the elevated nature of some Alps holes, if the berm wasn't there, what would happen to a ball hit long ?
It would have an even more difficult recovery.
Only balls hit slightly long encounter the problem you describe.
[/color]

"[size=x4]When the player hits his SECONDshot across THE SUMMIT OF THE SADDLE BACK HILL CALLED THE "ALPS" he is completely in doubt about the result.[/size]

His ball may be on the green close to the hole, or it
may have fallen just short of the green into a serious
hazard, or it may have run over the green into thick
bent leaving a difficult down-hill approach.
The
margin between the three results is so small that the
player is frequently pleasantly or unpleasantly disappointed
when he comes to the top of the hill and
surveys the result beneath him.

The green lies in a hollow with the bunker in front and a [size=x4]HIGH BANK[/size]behind. If the ball carries far enough to get over the
bunker by only a foot it gets a running fall and may
go right past the hole into the bent beyond.
Therefore
the difference between being in the bunker short
of the green or in the bent beyond the green is often
the difference of two or three feet in the carry.

Also patrick, your explanation is rather site specific.  How do you explain what appears to be the same feature at the Lido, where he had cart blanche with the land?  

Isnt it possible-- even likely-- that MacDonald considered this berm to be a key feature of the green area on Alps holes?


NO because he designed holes without the STEEP BANK behind the green, holes that he called Alps holes, because the KEY feature is the intervening land between the DZ and the green, not the feature, no matter its size or configuration, behind the green.
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 11:23:08 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #271 on: December 19, 2005, 10:43:14 PM »
Patrick, have you ever noticed that you become quite persnickety when you are wrong on the broad issue?
No more so than you.
Is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black ?
[/color]

Quote
Dave Moriarty insists is necessary in the design and classification of an Alps hole.

I said no such thing.

YES, you did, in the last sentence of your post # 228.

Go back and reread it, that's the essence of what you said, I'm just quoting you.
[/color]

Surely it would be downright silly to build an artifical berm where the green backed up to a natural hill which served the same purpose.

You've quoted CBM as stating that it must be a STEEP BANK, not a slight incline or small, gradual hill.
[/color]  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #272 on: December 19, 2005, 11:04:10 PM »
SPDB,

Are you sure that the green you refer to at St Louis isn't a punchbowl green, and not a green with a seperate, steep, offset berm.

Yes. Quite. There is a punchbowl/alps hole earlier in the round.

So you contend that he built two Alps holes on one course ?
That's the first time I've heard that theory.


Pat - The 5th is "Punchbowl," the 18th is "Alps," I was only trying to help you clear up your confusion of the two. Would you say that Yale has two Alps?

Dave Moriarty insists that the rear of the green have the Steep Bank as a KEY feature in determining if the hole is an Alps.  The 18th at St Louis has no such feature.

With CBM naming the hole "Oasis" I have my doubts as to whether CBM would classify a downhill hole as an Alps
hole.   A deep bunker fronting a green doesn't make a hole an Alps hole.

George Bahto identifies the 5th at St Louis as the Alps hole.
Yet, you maintain that it's the 18th.  Why is that ?
What do you base your classification on ?
And, why are you in disagreement with George Bahto ?


Quote
Where is the rear berm on the Alps hole you cited at Piping Rock ?

Where is the rear berm? Is that a serious question?  ;D

Yes.
[/color]

Ok. The rear berm is at the rear of the green.

Quote
Does it in any way resemble the rear berm at the 3rd hole at NGLA ?

It is not a steep as the berm at NGLA. A berm nevertheless.

CBM was specific, he identified the feature as a STEEP BANK, not an incline.



Does it strongly resemble the earthworks behind the 3rd green at NGLA ?   Or does it fall into the Camargo and St Louis category ?
[/color]

Who cares? Do you think the 3d at Piping Rock STRONGLY resembles the 4th at NGLA? Even though the former has 2 bunkers, while the latter has 5? These are template holes, not exact replicas

Not according to Dave Moriarty who quoted CBM as saying that the hole had to have a STEEP BANK in support of his argument about what constitutes the KEY features of an Alps hole.


Pat -
In your response to DavidM. you say that he's conveniently left out several alps like holes designed by CBM. What are these?

Where is the alps hole at The Creek you refer to?
The 15th, the Plateau/alps.

It's a hybrid, like the punchbowl/alps you refer to at St Louis.
[/color]

Pat, Now you've revealed yourself. The 15th at The Creek is a hogsback/double plateau hole (it is called hunchback, i think), if it is indeed a hybrid at all. It was a trick question, because there is no alps hole hole at The Creek.

It wasn't a trick question and it's not called a double plateau.

I suppose the first hole isn't a redan, despite its name.
Perhaps you feel that the 8th green bears a greater resemblance to a redan green then the 1st green does.

And, the 15th at The Creek isn't a hogsback, despite its name, the 5th at NGLA is an architectural hogsback.

How similar is the cant in the 15th fairway to the cant in the 18th fairway at St Louis, forgetting about the element of the steepness of slope.  And, can you think of any downhill holes that CBM annointed with the name, "Alps" ?

If I recall an earlier post correctly, you didn't even know that the 11th green at The Creek was a Biarritz.

And, lastly, the 12th at Piping Rock is named Apple Tree, not Alps


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #273 on: December 19, 2005, 11:09:14 PM »

Pat,
I think the berm is so pronounced that it would be visible from a good distance away. The 3D stereoscope image shows that it's pretty large and well higher than any surrounding feature.

I've marked 3 features on the photo, 2 bunkers and the berm, and then tried to show how they would have aligned on an aerial view of the area.





It's not convincing evidence, especially since the photo shows the course during construction. But based on the direction of the photo, there's nothing else in that line except the berm behind the #10 green. I thought the ridge might have been the alps feature in front of the green but the shape is all wrong - the alps is a large dome. The ridge in the photo has a depression in the middle of it which I believe is the green.

Craig,

You might be correct.
And then again you might not be.  With all of the earthmoving involved that pile could be a number of things, but, I"ll go along with your theory.

But, I'll bet you there wasn't a person on this website that picked the feature that you picked as the rear berm on # 10.
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 11:09:45 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #274 on: December 19, 2005, 11:20:19 PM »

Pat
Like the Alps/punchbowl it has a birm fronting the green and birm behind the green...creating a blind shot and a punchbowl affect. It also has the traditional bunker fronting the green.

Tom, CBM, SR and CB almost always created an alternative, right side escape route for the weaker player on their Alps holes.

I see no evidence of that feature at # 10 at Merion, and, I think that is a KEY feature to their Alps holes.

A deep fronting bunker doesn't mean that the hole was an alps hole.  Other greens had deep fronting bunkers, so this was a design element throughout the golf course, not just reserved for a hole you choose to classify as an Alps hole.

In addition, I question the degree of the elevation changes between the DZ and the green.

Unless substantive grading has been done over the years I'm having a difficult time arriving at a blind approach shot.
The current 10th green is driveable.  Do you feel that the topography of the area to the right of the current 10th green would preclude the golfer from seeing the old 10th  green ?

Did other holes have the elevated feature at the rear of the green, I seem to recall that the current 4th and 9th holes had that feature.
[/color]

I suspect when Macdonald and Raynor did not have a large natural landform to utilize they resorted to the Alps/punchbowl...the Alps/puchbowls at St. Louis and Camargo sits on relatively level gound.

The greens on those hole are slightly depressed from their surroundings, hardly "Alps" greens by any definition.
[/color]