Arts & Crafts sidetrack

[Sean_A]

Pat

I can't begin to tell if these mounds at Shawnee are finished or not.  It is hard  

Tom P.

If "alpanisation" doesn't refer back to Prestwick's Alps, what does the term refer to?

Tommy Mac

You are right in that the photo in your excellent article, The Rise And Fall Of Criticism, demonstrates the superior mounding work at Mid Surey.  However, Pat pointed out that the mounds of Shawnee may not be finished.  

Ciao

Sean

[wsmorrison]

"Tom P.

If "alpanization" doesn't refer back to Prestwick's Alps, what does the term refer to?"

Sean,

I never connected "Alpinization" with the Alps hole at Prestwick or its principles but rather the use of hills and valleys that in small-scale imitated the Alps mountain range itself.

[Phil_the_Author]

Sean, you asked, "If "alpanization" doesn't refer back to Prestwick's Alps, what does the term refer to?"

Wayne responded, "I never connected "Alpinization" with the Alps hole at Prestwick or its principles but rather the use of hills and valleys that in small-scale imitated the Alps mountain range itself."

The term "Alpinisation" used by Tilly refered to the architectural style of mounding, traps and grass hollows employed at the Royal Mid-Surrey club. If you go to their web-site you can see how this has evolved down to our day on the holes that still have the originals.

Depending upon the course, Tilly (& others) built them large or small and every size and conmbination in-between.

It is time that "Alps in America" brings to mind Mid-Surrey rather than Prestwick.

[wsmorrison]

Which came first, Tillie's use of them at Shawnee and elsewhere or their use at RMS?  It seems that others have said Tillie's work may have pre-dated those at RMS.  

[RT]

R-MS started their mound program in 1910 and finished about 1914 to replace the harsh steeplechase Victorian style mounds Tom MacWood makes mention.  Peter Lees was the head supt then and made a large contribution to their making, along with itenerate Irish labo(u)rers and some stout horses.

Does it add up?

[Phil_the_Author]

RT is correct. Tilly wrote that his were done in the Style of the Mid-Surrey scheme...

[Sean_A]

Wayne & Philip

Cheers.  Though I find it odd that somebody (who did coin the term?) would coin this term without intending to reference the original hole.

It was my impression that Mid Surrey first alpinised their course and Tilly followed a few years later without knowledge of Mid Surrey.  

The term "alpinisation" as it relates to golf rather than biodiversity strikes me as very American.  However, using an "s" in the spelling suggests that a Brit coined the term.  Somebody out there must know the origin of the term.

Ciao

Sean

[DMoriarty]

The above photos are indeed construction photos.  From the accompanying article by "Far and Sure."

MID-SURREY IN PENNSYLVANIA.

The Mid-Surrey scheme of breaking
up the fairway and rough into
miniature ranges of mountain and
valley, has been attempted at Shawnee
on probably a larger scale than anywhere
in America. Strangely enough
the idea of grass hollows and mounds
was conceived there three years ago,
before the Alpinisation at Richmond
was known. The photographs show
newly made ridges on the 10th fairway,
before the seeding. The plan of
this hole was sketched in the last issue
of THE AMERICAN GOLFER, and
in this connection the illustrations are
of particular interest. The height of
the greatest of the mounds, in Fig. 2,
may be gauged by comparison with the
man standing among them.

[TEPaul]

"Tom P.
If "alpanisation" doesn't refer back to Prestwick's Alps, what does the term refer to?"

Sean:

In my opinion, the term "alpinization" refers to rough mounds as an architectural feature. Examples of them in early American courses are Merion East, Pine Valley, Shawnee, and probably to a lesser extent Somerset Hills. It wouldn't surprise me if Tillie didn't come up with the term. He sure did use it a lot in his constant articles in magazines and newspapers for close to 25 years. There ae captions under photos in the magazines he wrote for showing what he was referring to as "alpinization". Obviously if he thought the photographic examples and captions were all wrong he probably would've said something about it.

J.H. Taylor, believed he virtually invented this concept of rough and somewhat radical mounds as an architectural feature. He called them "Mid-Surrey mounds". Those can be seen in photos too with that term in the captioned discription.

The "Alps" concept is a hole concept, not really a series of mounds like "alpinization" and "Mid-Surrey mounds". Tillie may also have called this mounding type of feature "dolomites".

"....However, Pat pointed out that the mounds of Shawnee may not be finished."

I believe Pat is absolutely right about that. Anyone can see there's really no grass on those "alpinization" features in those photos. Let's not have this site jump the gun on what features look like "pre-grassed" as they did on Merion East's bunker project. Many of the contributors on here, including me, think they know an awful lot but in those long and critical threads on Merion East's bunker project they obviously didn't know enough to understand that some golf and hazard features look a whole lot different when they've had a year or so to "grass-in".  

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Do you think the mounds to the right of the par 3 6th at Lancaster were a form of Alpinization?

[Sean_A]

Tom P.

Perhaps I need to get me eyes checked!

Ciao

Sean

[TEPaul]

Sean:

Perhaps some of us are seriously over-thinking this subject of definitions. Those guys came up with a lot of terms---particularly Tillinghast---he had a really creative mind in a lot of areas---and words and descriptions was most definitely one of them (under little charicatures that he was also good at were the terms "Whiffenpoof", 'Whiffensnoozar", and "Sneezer" ). Guys back then came up with all kinds of odd terms, like Piper or Oakley who became involved in creating the USGA Green Section. One of them would sign letters "Agrostologist", which is a pretty weird term. What it meant was an expert on bent grass  (Agrostis).  

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty, et. al.,

I think you have to be careful not to blend distinct architectural features into one catch-all category.

It would appear that there was the "Alps" a larger intervening feature, alpinization, mounds and berms.  And, that these features could be used in different locations, serving different purposes.

I've often wondered if the large rear berm at # 3 at NGLA wasn't there for two purposes.
1  To act as a backstop or safety net for errant shots given the long and blind approach into that green.
2  To act as a protective barrier to those on the 4th tee.

Now it may serve a third purpose.
To block some views of Sebonack.

Crcular and straight mounding behind greens along with mounds or berms behind greens was a common AWT feature, not to be confused with "alpinization"

If you'll look at early photos of Shackamaxon, especially the 9th green you'll see the, behind the green feature.  The 14th hole also has behind the green mounds, as opposed to the longer berm like feature that appears elsewhere.

I don't know if we'll ever know AWT's definitions for these features, or if he consistently classified them over his designing years, but, perhaps we should define or view them in their seperate forms and functions.

[TEPaul]

"I've often wondered if the large rear berm at # 3 at NGLA wasn't there for two purposes.
1  To act as a backstop or safety net for errant shots given the long and blind approach into that green.
2  To act as a protective barrier to those on the 4th tee."

Patrick:

Tell me the truth. Did you really think up those two all by yourself? Stop wondering, there's no question about it, although the ALPS at Piping Rock doesn't have a tee behind the green it does have a big berm in the back like NGLA's but that's so an overshot ball doesn't go into Mrs Gotrock's lawn behind the green like a bullet and take out one of her miniature poodles or something.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Do you think the mounds to the right of the par 3 6th at Lancaster were a form of Alpinization?"

Wayne:

Yes, I do. There's no question of it at all---none---zero!

I thought you knew that already. Those were Flynn's versions of J.H.Taylor's "Mid-Surrey" mounds, or Tillinghast's "Alpinization" but Flynn's were a bit lower with much broader bases and they were referred to as "Poconoization".

I thought you knew that.  

These people on this website are a bunch of frauds basically. They act like they know something about classic golf architecture but they really don't know crap.

You know those mounds on the right of the 9th hole and on the left of the 16th hole at GMGC. Those things are Donald Ross's version of Taylor "Mid-Surrey" mounds or Tillinghast "Alpinization", or Flynn's "Poconoization" except they're called "Berkshireization". They're examples of semi-early Ross mounds from his Massachusetts period.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Likewise the 12th at Yale.

It's interesting that the Redan followed the Alps at Yale and NGLA.  How many other CBM, SR, CB courses have that configuration ?

[wsmorrison]

"I thought you knew that already. Those were Flynn's versions of J.H.Taylor's "Mid-Surrey" mounds, or Tillinghast's "Alpinization" but Flynn's were a bit lower with much broader bases and they were referred to as "Poconoization"."

Thanks for the laugh.  Sue is looking at me like I'm an idiot.  Even more so when she saw what made me laugh!  

Watch out, Malone is going to see you talking about Poconoization and he'll be a believer  

[TEPaul]

But the real mystery is Macdonald, Raynor and Banks. The best minds in golf architecture think they never quite graduated into mounds. They got sort of stuck in a "semi-straight linization".

Probably the best reason for that I've ever heard is C.B. Macdonald thought A/C's William Morris was a bit of an asshole and didn't feel like mimicing his reversion back to the "Gothization" look and ultra "Naturalization". If you read Macdonald close enough you can tell he always had a bit of a hankering from Roman and Creek "classicism" which is pretty much straigthish lines.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Phil,
The term Alpinization wasn't Tillie's. He just expounded on it. I have come across several items calling it out in the 1900's, before Tillinghast was even designing golf courses.

[Mike_Cirba]

I've been dying to jump in on this thread for weeks now!  

Now, I can.

Wasn't it little Devvie Emmett who originaly came up with the concept and practice of "Alpinization" after a schnappes-soaked, liederhausen lifting, hungry hun hunting night in Munich back in 1887?  

According to some nihilistic sources at the time, the story goes that Emmett came away so impressed and inspired that he decided to devote his life to creating "unnatural" features on golf courses, as well as other wildly hedonistic pursuits.

[Craig Disher]

The drawing here



looks like it's probably a drawing of this hole at Shawnee. The aerial was taken in 1939. North is at the top. I'm not completely convinced since the map in Course Beautiful shows this hole as #13, not #10 but it's possible the ordering of the holes changed over 20 years. Also, the hillside tee mentioned in the drawing would fit about where the ridge can be seen to the left of the green at the bottom of the picture. The length of the 10th hole mentioned in AG is 339 yards which is pretty close to the 353 listed on the course map. The course map lists #10 as 522 yards which also suggests that the hole order was changed.



Considering the ground-level photos, I'd guess that both were taken from about the middle of the mounds, this with the camera facing north towards the Binnekill



and this with the camera facing generally southeast towards the rest of the course and the NJ heights in the background.

[ForkaB]

I've been dying to jump in on this thread for weeks now!  

Now, I can.

Wasn't it little Devvie Emmett who originaly came up with the concept and practice of "Alpinization" after a schnappes-soaked, liederhausen lifting, hungry hun hunting night in Munich back in 1887?  

According to some nihilistic sources at the time, the story goes that Emmett came away so impressed and inspired that he decided to devote his life to creating "unnatural" features on golf courses, as well as other wildly hedonistic pursuits.

Mikey

How the hell do you "lift" ledershosen?  I've tried it and it hurts!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Travis's features were varied, some large and some smaller in scale.

He used specific words to describe them, the names of which escape me at the moment.  On the smaller features it was something like asparagus, broccoli or Brussels sprouts.  Some refered to his larger features, with truck like size, as choclolate drops.

Again, you can't use one catch all category to describe all of the features these fellows crafted.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mikey

How the hell do you "lift" ledershosen?  I've tried it and it hurts!

Rich,

Rumor has it that the "wedgie" was also invented during that period and it would surprise me not in the least to learn that Emmett was a fervid practitioner.

[TEPaul]

"......On the smaller features it was something like asparagus, broccoli or Brussels sprouts.

Patrick:

Must you continually show your ignorance on here, even about the architecture of a golf course you belong to?

Devie Emmet never did any architectural features that were  referred to as brussel sprouts. Asparagus and broccoli, yes, but never, I repeat NEVER did he do any brussel sprouts!!

And it's brussel sprouts with a small "b" not a capital "B" you dimwit. Brussel sprouts with a capital "B" are small children from a particular section of the city of Brussels in Belgium.

Devie Emmet never did any of those either, Well, maybe I shouldn't go quite that far.