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Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2005, 09:37:00 PM »
This is fascinating from several perspectives -- not the least of which is that very little has apparently changed in six years.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Andy Troeger

Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2005, 10:04:44 PM »
One thing that's interesting is the major criticisms of Whitten's work to that point consisted mainly of only two reviews: Beechtree and Talking Stick. This might just have been the tip of a larger iceberg that wasn't mentioned in this thread, but it would seem it would take more than two "bad" reviews to earn the criticism thrown at Mr. Whitten on this thread.

I haven't read enough of his work carefully to be too thorough, but if for no reason but to post something positive  :)  :o I do appreciate his answers in the interview that was done for this site, especially to questions 6 and 14. I wouldn't say I agree verbatum (sp?), but I think he makes interesting and important points.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewwhitten.html
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 10:06:04 PM by Andy Troeger »

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2005, 10:50:48 PM »
In his interview, which I admit I'd never read until now, Whitten comes across as a bit jaded -- and that was six years ago. He actually doesn't come across as someone who enjoys what he does for a living, which is a shame. Maybe it is just the tone of the written interview, but that's how it reads to me.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2005, 10:57:09 PM »
I reread the Whitten interview and my impression is that he was somewhat defensive and unwilling to say much. Now that he has some course credits of his own, I'd like to see him interviewed as an architect.

By the way, Here is his article re Talking Stick. Note his comment about TSN specifically:

Stiff upper lips - Ben Crenshaw and designer Bill Coore got carried away with the high, inward-slanting vertical lips on the bunckers at the South Course of Talking Stick Golf Club in Scottsdale, Arizona
Ron Whitten

One of the things Ben Crenshaw admires most about Royal Melbourne Golf Club in Australia, site of the most recent Presidents Cup: the high vertical lips on its bunkers. Some rise 18 inches above the top of the sand. They add an intimidation factor, both from a distance and certainly from within any of those pits.

Similar bunkers can also be found at another nearby golf course, Kingston Heath. Both are designs of golf architect Alister Mackenzie, a Crenshaw favorite.

But when Crenshaw and his design partner Bill Coore gave the Royal Melbourne treatment to the bunkers on their year-old South Course at Talking Stick Golf Club in Scottsdale, Ariz., they overdid it. Especially since Talking Stick is open to public play.

Their bunker edges aren't merely vertical, they're tilted inward, turning yawning bunkers into sneering ones. Balls can plug beneath these stiff upper lips into impossible lies. You can't move the ball forward, sideways offers no relief and there's no way to get a club on the ball to hit it backward. The only remedy: a drop under Rule 28 and a one-stroke penalty.

The other 18 at Talking Stick, the North Course, has a different set of bunkers, with the sand raked to the top and the rims planted in shaggy grasses. While they look equally fearsome, at least they're escapable.

Our rule: If a bunker lip casts a shadow at high noon, it's Architorture.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Andy Troeger

Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2005, 11:03:55 PM »
Steve,
  I agree about his being defensive, most of his answers had that tone to me; had he read this thread (entirely possible) I can't blame him!

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2005, 11:07:48 PM »
Andy and Steve: For a man who often writes about lists for GD, he was particularly difficult to pin down on his own lists. I assume his comment about Letterman and lists was done with tongue firmly planted in cheek, but who knows? Can one hate lists and still be in charge of one? Wouldn't that lead to self loathing? :P
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Andy Troeger

Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2005, 11:12:58 PM »
Robert,
  I think there's some definite sarcasm in there, although I think a good portion of it was to change the topic to get away from lists (and the Talking Stick question). Its hard to tell just from written words, but considering he went straight from the list comments to his "Best 18" list, I'd say there's some verbal manuevering going on to avoid answering questions he knew wouldn't be popular. :)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2005, 06:30:27 AM »
Well, Some threads just don't die! ;)

The point of this was simple: Ron Whitten at that period of time seemed hell bent on attacking the more purists ways of C&C and others. His critique as I remember it, just wasn't part of article that Steve posted, but also a picture of the bunker @ #2 on the South course, which was in fact brutally tough. Maybe the toughest feature on that course. But it didn't start there either.

It all started when Ron bagged on Geoff Shackelford's, The Good Doctor Returns.  The review to me was filled with hate, deceit and jealousy. In an email with me, Ron took the position of a frustrated New York Times book critic, (and a lousy one at that.) Claiming that it lacked substance and that he stood by his review.

I owe Ron a lot. I owe him for writing and compiling the Golf Course, a book I credit a great deal in my education of the art, but it's filled with inaccuracies that were only partially corrected in The Golf Architects. I think he should critique that for what it is instead of a book like The Good Doctor Returns, which was supposed to be a light-hearted book filled with all sorts of fun possibilites and what-if scenarios.

Therfore, just as Ron said to me in an email, I stand by my review of this post. AT THAT TIME, Ron Whitten disappointed greatly. He can do better.

Lets all put this thread to bed!


ForkaB

Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2005, 08:15:18 AM »
Not so soon, Emperor (new clothes or not!)  ;)

PRO!

Best interview (by FAR!) on this site.  Those of you who see "defensiveness," just go to the 1999 posts by Ran and others and see what defensiveness really is.  "How dare he criticize Bill and Ben!!!!????"  Etc. Etc.  Ron is telling it like he thinks it is, and understands that it is just his own point of view he is expressing.  Very refreshing.

This interview should be ingrained on all of our brains when we try to pontificate about our likes and dislikes, ideas and theories, and then act as if these opinions were "true."  They ain't.

Well done, Ron, and thanks, Tommy for starting this thread.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 08:23:21 AM by Rich Goodale »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2005, 11:09:31 AM »
If Ron is so anti-minimalist then why did he coin the term?  And why is Erin Hills being sold as minimalist?

Those reviews for which he was blasted by Tommy were just an attempt to provide some balance so people (other architects in particular) wouldn't accuse him of always loving whatever Bill Coore built, or whatever I do.  Which I understand better than anyone, having tried to find both good and bad things to say about every major architect's work in The Confidential Guide.

Sometimes I don't understand Ron's tastes in courses and design features ... some of the things he has liked over the years just seemed goofy to me.  (And now I'll get to say so when I review HIS work.)  But the vitriol over his reviews is ridiculous.

Pat Jones

Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2005, 11:11:45 AM »
Wow...

I suddenly remembered why I didn't post on GCA for so long.  The vitrol that flows here from time to time is just stunning.

Personally, I deeply admire guys like Ron, Shack, Doak and Klein who have the balls to put their opinions in print despite knowing full well they'll be criticized by some percentage of a yipping pack of armchair hobbyists who can sit in relative anonimity and fearlessly lob cyber-firebombs at them.

To quote David Spade, "There, I said it."

PJ




Pat Jones

Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2005, 11:13:27 AM »
Equally impressive is Tom's ability to spell "vitriol" correctly vs. my hopeless effort.  See, these guys are good.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2005, 11:53:37 AM »
Pat,

Ah yes.....

I recall our discussion of GCA in some parking lot where you described your vision of the typical poster here as sitting in a darkened computer room in his bathrobe, eating rice krispies, and busily typing posts!  That still sticks with me!

Like Tommy, I think I owe Ron a lot, and I think he owes me nothing.  And, in fact, his reviews of my courses have been mixed, but I don't go off the handle because of it. I try to learn what opinions are out there.  Who else has actually seen the work we talk of here more than Ron?  Not many.

That interview, and this regurgitated thread introduced me to golf club atlas!  We were talking one day, and he told me he was being flamed here, so I checked in to see what it was about.  I didn't post on this thread, but jumped in soon after.

I owe him for the Architects of Golf highlighting my craft.  Are there flaws?  Yes, but I think anyone here who has actually tracked down long ago forgotten info would cut him some slack for his "guesses based on a few documents or childhood memories, etc. - when he started, it was a tough subject to research) there is the fact that he tries to give an honest opinion about the course, regardless of who designed it.  

He has flamed big names like Nicklaus (a digest editor) and Fazio as much as Doak and C and C.  How about this quote from his interview under discussion here, which takes to task both the "hot architects" and the general tone of this site:

"But the tone of your question implies that there's something wrong with the Trent Jones style of the 60s and 70s. What's wrong, I ask you, with the Jones style of that era? Too predictable? (Unlike Dye, Fazio or Nicklaus of today, who build their pet favorite holes ad nauseam?)"

He has promoted work of relatively unknown architects.

He invented or reinvented the genre of golf architecture critic, probably paving the way for others like Geoff, and possibly even this website.

He has been honest in critiquing other writer/architect works, giving both Geoff and Tom Doak their due when warranted.

He does believe in finding the good in any architecture, while softening his critique of most flaws, except when they asked him to write his architorture column, which must, by definitions highlight flaws.  He called me once to tell me the footprint bunker at Giants Ridge was scheduled as an architorture item to let me know it was coming.  Its a delicate balance, being friendly enough to get necessary quotes, but distant enough to write honestly about what might be better.

Was he defensive in his interview?  Maybe not enough. He got called on the carpet for using profanity in that interview, which is beneath GD and most peoples standards.

Was he unfair in his review of Geoff's book?  As one of the 3500 people worldwide who bought Geoff's book,  I enjoyed it, but I understand Ron's points that it didn't really have the drama and plot necessary to make it stand up as a well written piece of fiction.  Hey, Dallas took a hit for having Bobby reappear in the shower, why shouldn't it be fair game to take a hit for the good doctor to return in a dream?  

When I read Tommys reply a few years back, I thought it was the arrogant, inflammatory writing!  (I think at one point, I even compared someone here to a nazi, thereby contributing to the squalor, so we all get out of hand sometimes) He may have softened somewhat since then, and having met him, I know he isn't at all like his writing back then was.  But it really did seem then that he was offended mostly that someone could disagree with his point of view.  Even the fact that he uses the word "purist" shows that he has only one view of gca and none other will suffice.  

Ron has the opinion, like Tom Paul, and expressed in the interview that there are many good ways to skin a cat, which is far better than a narrow view, at least in my book.  

And, IHMO this site IS too politically correct about what constitutes "acceptable" architecture. In essence, thats what got this web site started, the question of why modern architects seemed to have too similar styles, and why couldn't we explore a different style?

Its a shame that so much energy is now devoted to trying to keep us in one "preferred" style only, trying to replace one "convention" with another.  It can only stifle creativity.  What if we lost the best design concept ever because some designer was afraid to go against this new convention?  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andy Troeger

Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2005, 02:24:57 PM »
Glad to see some other positive comments by gentlemen much more knowledgeable about this topic than I :)

Jeff,
  Glad to see you highlight one of the points I noticed in the interview regarding RTJ's style. While it is not in fashion now I think there is much offered by it. I was impressed by the open minded attitude Whitten showed in that he looks at both good and bad aspects of courses, and he does not just rubber stamp a course because architect A designed it.

Pat,
   Well said  ;D


cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2005, 04:21:20 PM »
Jeff:

You are like a breath of fresh air that this sites needs soooo badly.

One of the real problems with GCA as I see it, is the 30 or so posters who are hell bent on belittling anyone a different opinion. They just shout down those of us who have something to say that is different than the bias here.

I am posting less and less these days as a result, and I think those of us who are interested in hearing something other than the bias of a few, should come out of the lurkers closet and declare themselves, or GCA will become a staid site limiting freedom of speech by the chosen 30.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2005, 04:44:41 PM »
Suffice to say, you will never see an interview with him at this site. . .     . . .  it will never happen.

Why won't it happen?

I am Pro Whitten when I agree with him and Con Whitten when I do not.

  What would we do without Whitten's and Cornish's book - it's invaluable for info, not opionions.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten-Pro or Con?
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2005, 05:03:14 PM »
Suffice to say, you will never see an interview with him at this site. . .     . . .  it will never happen.

Why won't it happen?


It actually did happen just a few months later:

Whitten interview
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

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