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ForkaB

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2006, 11:23:56 AM »
"Ran and Tommy
Get that padlock out!  The lunatics have escaped the asylum, yet again!    ::)    :o    

Rich:

You're an intelligent dude---I just know you can contribute something of historic and artistic interest to this subject if you just try to put your mind to it. Give it a try---this is an important subject for golf course architecture.

Tom

To me this is a non-subject, much less an important one, vis a vis GCA.  Any influence on the "Golden Age" of GCA from landscape architecture, or Arts and Crafts, or Quantum Physics, or Imagism or the the fact that the US Patent Commisioner declared in 1899 that he going to close down his office becuase there was "nothing more to invent" or whatever else you could dream up, is so insignificant as to be hardly worthy of a post, much less a plethora of threads.  IMHO, of course.  This is what I thought when I first read Tom MacW's IMO piece several years ago, and thousands of posts and gazillions of megabytes later from him you and others nothing has been said to change my mind.

Just because things coincide or come one after the other doesn't mean that they have any sort of causal relationship.  To assume so without compelling evidence is the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy which we all studied in Logic 101 at College.

OK, lock me up too, Ran! :o
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 11:33:54 AM by Rich Goodale »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2006, 11:30:24 AM »
"TE
Which authorities? What precisely is their counterpoint...I do not see anything specific in George's letter about the vaious art forms and how they fit into the movement. His very narrow definition of the movement would exclude one of its most famous practioners: Gertrude Jekyll"

Tom:

What's the matter with you? Just read what I wrote. It is not hard to understand, it's simply that you continue to refuse to acknowledge what's being said to you. People do have a difference of opinion from yours and in this case quite dramatically so, apparenty. Authorities? I told you who Landow is, his bio is posted and he mentioned a few people who he claims are some of the world's greatest experts on A&C.

Jekyll? Yes, I'm sure she had an interest in A&C but these men obviously believe (as many do on here) that A&C is primarily in dec. arts, not really in LA, and apparently not in GCA.

I've produced some very impressive opinions on this subject today and I'm tired of your constant questions of answers I've already given you. I hope that others are beginning to recognize your intransigence and obduracy on this subject. That has always been my purpose to point out with you and your theory and thesis. I think it's wrong and apparently so do those I've just spoken to who know A&C best.

All the information is here, read it again if you need to to understand it better. And by all means get in touch with Professor Landow or anyone else he may put you in touch with as he will with me.

I'm quite sure he's never read your essay. Why don't you make it available to him? Why don't you try to convince him of your point and your thesis? I encourage you to do that? This is a discussion group, and I'm merely trying to get to the facts and the truth of these subjects. These men can definitely help all of us understand them better.

And I have no interest at all in making this man or anyone else some secret source of information as you did with those poor people in Merchantville. And I have no interest at all either in mindlessly trying to swear four people to secrecy as you did with your Crump article.

I'll take and put on here whatever any source of mine tells me if that's OK with them. I don't care if they agree with me or you or anyone else. I'm only trying to understand this entire issue of GCA better, and I'll talk to anyone, partcularly experts on these various subjects.

That's all.

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2006, 11:49:33 AM »
Authorities? I told you who Landow is, his bio is posted and he mentioned a few people who he claims are some of the world's greatest experts on A&C.

Authorities is plural. You produced one "authority" whose narrow definition of the movement and the regions the movement is opposed to conventional wisdom...assuming of course you are giving us his accurate view.

What are the names of these world's greatest experts on the A&C Movement?


TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2006, 12:30:58 PM »
"Authorities is plural. You produced one "authority" whose narrow definition of the movement and the regions the movement is opposed to conventional wisdom...assuming of course you are giving us his accurate view.
What are the names of these world's greatest experts on the A&C Movement?"

Conventional Wisdom? Who is that, you?  Is it A&C websites? I'm sick of your petty suspicious and constantly questioning  defensiveness, and I certainly hope others are getting sick of it too. You're one of the most remarkably defensive people I've ever seen.

The man's bio is posted. Why don't you go find him or them for yourself, it's certainly not difficult? I've just shown you how, and without screaming bloody murder as you did when I called you and asked you about Crump. Or why don't you find us someone, as I have, we can talk to who's knowledgeable and objective and can pass as an authority on A&C as  Wainwright does and apparently Landow too? I think we're all getting a bit tired of you trying to pass yourself off as an authority on the subject of A&C. You are anything but that, that's for damned sure, and it's becoming more patently obvious with ever passing day.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 12:35:50 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2006, 12:37:54 PM »
"Tom
To me this is a non-subject, much less an important one, vis a vis GCA.  Any influence on the "Golden Age" of GCA from landscape architecture, or Arts and Crafts, or Quantum Physics, or Imagism or the the fact that the US Patent Commisioner declared in 1899 that he going to close down his office becuase there was "nothing more to invent" or whatever else you could dream up, is so insignificant as to be hardly worthy of a post, much less a plethora of threads.  IMHO, of course.  This is what I thought when I first read Tom MacW's IMO piece several years ago, and thousands of posts and gazillions of megabytes later from him you and others nothing has been said to change my mind."

Rich:

Understood!   ;)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 12:38:16 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2006, 12:39:33 PM »
"Just because things coincide or come one after the other doesn't mean that they have any sort of causal relationship.  To assume so without compelling evidence is the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy which we all studied in Logic 101 at College."

Rich:

Understand even better!  ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2006, 01:17:08 PM »
“….the world of artists and architecture was dominated by the utterances of a single intellectual giant, John Ruskin. No figure before or since has occupied such an all-commanding position, on in which he was actually able to determine the direction in which the visual arts of the Victorian age should go….Ruskin was the greatest critic in the English language. His powers as a rhetorician told the emergent nation what to look at and how to look at it. In his case the response to the attacks of science and history on traditional Christianity and institutional religion was romantic. Ruskin cast nature as the reflection of divine truth, asking people to look at the earth and the skies as manifestation of God.”

“In Britain, unlike the rest of Europe, the Industrial Revolution had been carried through with the active participation of the aristocracy. This meant the existing structure of society remained in place, indeed, via the public school system, it was able to filter its values to the newly emergent classed. The result was that the up and coming generations began increasingly to look down on industry, trade, science and the world of business, opting rather for an aristocratic-gentry life-style, with the attributes of country house, garden and park, the cultivation of style, the pursuit of leisure and political service rather than overt sordid money-making and entrepreneurship.

That distaste for industry and the city had found its initial aesthetic voice in Ruskin, and accounts for the fact that a quintessentially urban age produced so little art mirroring the fact. What Ruskin could not have foreseen was that his hatred for what industrialism had done would be taken over and attached to a growing social and political force, the working class. In this the designer, poet, and writer William Morris was to a be the pivotal figure, moving to a viewpoint which cast the middle classes as ‘irredeemable’ and that ‘the cause of Art is the cause of the people’. Art and political ideology were for the fist time yoked with consequences which have reverberated through to the present. Morris’ achievements with the arts and crafts were to range over book design, weaving, furniture, stained glass, gardens, architecture and painting. What set his contribution apart was his linking of it the cause of socialism. In 1883, having studied the writings of Karl Marx, Morris joined the Socialist Democratic Federation, leaving it a year later to set up the Socialist League. Morris was a political radical attacking the existing industrial and commercial system, arguing that factory production was not only ruining the environment but debasing men and their products. The irony was that his solution lay not in reforming that system but putting the clock back, creating what was in effect an elitist cottage craft movement whose inspiration lay in the countryside and the vernacular artifacts of its past. This turning against the city and industry therefore permeated both the top and bottom of the social and political spectrum. “

“…..Virtually throughout the arts there was a yearning for the past. Not, one might add, a grand aristocratic past but, rather gentry and yeoman. Nowhere is this more evident than in architecture. Architects recreated the past as worked of pre-industrial simplicity, ‘quaint’ and ‘old fashioned’, whose point of reference was the small manor house, farmhouse or cottage of Tudor or early Stuart England. Houses were no longer built to look new but old, being irregular, discreet and tucked away into the folds of the landscape which they no longer sought to dominate.”

The Spirit of Britain (A Narrative History of the Arts) -- Roy Strong

This has been today's A&C moment.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 01:25:22 PM by Tom MacWood »

Ryan Crago

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2006, 01:28:44 PM »
gentlemen,

i feel like i'm eavesdropping in this conversation, but i came across an article recently in Landscape Journal (Spring, Vol.14) which may add fuel to this argument.

Its titled "Learning From Linksland" - with apologies to 'Learning from Las Vegas', written by a University of Orgeon landscape architecture prof. Ken Helphand, and is one of few 'academic' (if you will) golf course architecture based writings that have come across in my research (including! the Arts/Crafts essays).

If you haven't seen it, Helphand draws some parallels to the evolution of the golf course, and golf course features to that of european garden design in terms of typologies and morphologies as the game expanded around the world, and moved inland.  he in fact notes that golf courses can be used as perhaps a model for studying landscape design evolutions (because there is a relatively rich history, and reasonably recent and well documented).

In the discussion, Helphand talks about a balance between 'natural' and 'cultural' influences on golf design - (citing a few of Muirhead's symbolic designs), and noting that much like garden/landscape design, neither should be ignored - (which in some ways, refutes the GCA party line in some ways)

Apart from a few statements in the article where i felt he showed that his knowledge of golf was perhaps surficial (though, perhaps not) - i thought the paper was certainly well researched, an enjoyable read, and as a current landscape architecture Masters' student who CONSTANTLY struggles to earn respect from my faculty and peers because of my passion (addiction?) to golf course architecture, it (much like the A/C essays) lends some further theoretical basis for my studies.

If you guys have seen the article, i'd love to hear your opinions....

rc.









 

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2006, 01:33:14 PM »
Ryan,
Where can one find the article?

Great stuff, and I may have a book on Environmental Design that has something similar in there, quoting Desmond on that particular essay or thesis, that he gave me about 6 or 7 years ago, shortly before he died.

Ryan Crago

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2006, 01:45:55 PM »
TN,

I had heard of the article ages ago, but was unable to track it down online or through library periodicals... my persitance with my librarian to dig up the 'stored' volume from our library finally paid off.  If you'd like, i can scan it and email you a copy (if you dont mind my highlights and scratch on it!)

rc.

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2006, 03:45:19 PM »
Ryan:

I'd love to see that article too. Can you cut and paste it on here?

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2006, 04:13:34 PM »
Tom MacW:

Thanks for Roy Strong's article but I don't think any of us on here have questioned the prominence of John Rushkin as a multifarious critic in the arts or William Morris as the moving force of the A/C Movement in Victorian England as well as a political socialist nigh onto a communist who was very influential in Victorian England in dec arts and who had some influence on building architecture and also on some in garden architecture of that period.

However, Tom, this website is about golf course architecture, not painting, dec arts and its movement with some influence on building architecture and on some in landscape architecture.   :P

Just look to the linksland, my boy, look to the linksland and also to the Heathlands and you will see the way and the light as so many interested in the evolution of golf architecture have before you. The answer has been in the linksland for hundreds of years, before Pugin or Rushkin or Morris, before his A/C movement, before HH and before Country Life.

When Willie P jr finally had the time and the backing he just looked homeward to his beloved linksland and its light showed him and eventually some of the others the way to the Promised Land and its Golden Age!

And where had William Morris been? He'd been designing ceramics and wallpaper and tapestry and railing against the political and social and economic ravages wrought by the likes of William Waldorf Astor and his conservative, aristocratic and capitalist ilk.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 04:49:23 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2006, 11:10:33 PM »
quote TomM  "Paul,
Wasn't Stickley heavily influenced by Ruskin, Morris and the British A&C movement?"

I am sure that being well read, Gustav Stickley was very aware of the writings and philosophies of the above, but its my opinion that he also was a very practical, go on his own,  type of individual who probably cherry picked what he found useful from them when developing his on ideologies.

I don't recall anything that Gustav wrote that espoused a political viewpoint, which probably removed him a little from Morris at least.....but then again, my study of the A&C movement has always been from a designers, not a historians, perspective.



 


 

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 11:11:43 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2006, 11:46:31 PM »
Actually...if I may shift forward in time concerning GCA and LArch...I am at a project in Mexico that combines both in interesting ways......at least for me.

I am developing the master plan for a 1600 ac Resort community that has 1.5 miles of ocean frontage on the Pacific, with an extensive dune system behind the beach, while the rest of the property slopes back at a gradient that allows foreveryone to have an ocean view....we are allowing for 36 holes of golf, with 18 being carefully carved and created from the dune system with as little disturbance as necessary [think SHills]....now that leaves the 'back' property that has sparse and over grazed vegetation, but long ocean views.
What we have decided to do with the second course, is create an 18 hole 'oasis', whose very appeal will depend as much on the total landform we intend on creating, along with its complimenting landscape....as it will on its golf [think SCreek].

We will use as a model for our landscape, the existing natural oasis' that I first discovered to my surprise in northern Baja in the early seventies.

We will have two very differing and contrasting courses when completed.....and two very different landscape design solutions.
Tommorrow I hope to find on site some ruins from the original hacienda that was built around the oasis and existed until the 12 year drought of 1898 brought about its demise.....maybe even some of it could be incorporated as part of the course design, as I feel that using history as a design tool has exciting implications, and is no different than the idea of 'distressing' a piece of furniture, or in the broadest sense, designing in any of the 'revival' styles that borrow and suggest history from times past.










The architecture will be 'Mission style'.
....Spanish Colonial Revival 'Mission' of course..... ;)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 09:12:14 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2006, 06:06:46 AM »
quote TomM  "Paul,
Wasn't Stickley heavily influenced by Ruskin, Morris and the British A&C movement?"

I am sure that being well read, Gustav Stickley was very aware of the writings and philosophies of the above, but its my opinion that he also was a very practical, go on his own,  type of individual who probably cherry picked what he found useful from them when developing his on ideologies.

I don't recall anything that Gustav wrote that espoused a political viewpoint, which probably removed him a little from Morris at least.....but then again, my study of the A&C movement has always been from a designers, not a historians, perspective.

I'll take that as an affirmative. Stickley had a professor at Syracuse U. who introduced him to Ruskin and Morris. In 1898 he visited England and saw the work of Ballie Scott, Mackmurdo, Voysey and other A&C designers which he knew from the magazine the The Studio. After his return he founded United Crafts, a profit sharing guild, and The Craftsman magazine. The first issue consisted of five articles on the life and work of William Morris...the second was devoted to Ruskin.

I think most historians acknowledge there was a thriving American A&C movement....despite what the English professor says.

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2006, 06:29:40 AM »
Tom MacW:

Thanks for Roy Strong's article but I don't think any of us on here have questioned the prominence of John Rushkin as a multifarious critic in the arts or William Morris as the moving force of the A/C Movement in Victorian England as well as a political socialist nigh onto a communist who was very influential in Victorian England in dec arts and who had some influence on building architecture and also on some in garden architecture of that period.

However, Tom, this website is about golf course architecture, not painting, dec arts and its movement with some influence on building architecture and on some in landscape architecture.   :P

Just look to the linksland, my boy, look to the linksland and also to the Heathlands and you will see the way and the light as so many interested in the evolution of golf architecture have before you. The answer has been in the linksland for hundreds of years, before Pugin or Rushkin or Morris, before his A/C movement, before HH and before Country Life.

When Willie P jr finally had the time and the backing he just looked homeward to his beloved linksland and its light showed him and eventually some of the others the way to the Promised Land and its Golden Age!

And where had William Morris been? He'd been designing ceramics and wallpaper and tapestry and railing against the political and social and economic ravages wrought by the likes of William Waldorf Astor and his conservative, aristocratic and capitalist ilk.

TE
Did the professor read my essay?

The purpose of the Strong excerpt (from his book on the history of British Art) was to show the professor is off base with his comments about the start of the golden age and his idea that it had a narrow inluence (as opposed to the common acknowledgement that it had an influence upon a wide variety of endeavors). His very brief conclusion is:

As for the Arts and Crafts influence on the actual design of courses, I don't really see how that could work for two reasons: first, A&C was not so much a back to nature movement as a back to fine craftsmanship
and exploration of the intrinsic potentials of materials (wood,
ceramics, textiles) as opposed to machine reproducible gimcracks and poor design.

Second, the obvious source of course architecture would have to be the history of landscape gardening about which there are a number of important books.


I'm not sure if the A&C movement is his strength....his impressive website on everything having to do with Victorian England hardly even mentions the movement....which is a little strange IMO. On the other hand it is a site devoted to Victorianism and the A&C movement was more or less a reaction against the realities of Victorian England, so that might explain why he does not give the movement much emphasis.

Back to his two points, he is wrong to imply that Nature did not play a large roll in the A&C movement. There was a strong desire to exodus the ugly city for the naturalness of the country. There was an emphasis on utilizing natural materials and working them honestly. Many of the designs of Morris and others incorporated naturalistic and plant forms. And Ruskin himself emphasized Nature (see Strong) as the inspiration for everything beautiful. There was strong desire to follow nature in the A&C movement as opposed to Victorian aesthetics. The naturalness of the heathland courses vs the unnaturalness of the Victorian designs.

The second part tells me he doesn't know much about golf architecture history and the heathland. The heathland designs bear no resemblance to  the work of Brown and Repton....they were inspired by the linksland.

Where has William Morris been? You can still buy his designs today...over 100 years later they are still popular. Not bad...maybe he and Ruskin knew what they were talking about.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 06:43:10 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2006, 06:43:28 AM »
Tom MacWood:

That is all very interesting about a connection of the British and the American A&C movement through Stickley etc. Perhaps you should write an essay about the British A&C movement's influence on Stickley, if there was one. Is there a good furniture website you know of?

As to an A&C influence on GCA, to date you're still running a far-fetched "fishing expedition". Did Gustav Stickley design any golf courses we're not aware of or are you just going to tell us there were golf courses in the town he came from like you did regarding some A&C craft societies around Boston, Philadelphia and LA etc?  ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2006, 06:54:13 AM »
TE
Stickely was more than just furniture...have you ever read The Craftsman? Its hard for me a phathom where the professor came up with idea the A&C movement was strickly British. Any ideas?

I don't believe Stickley ever designed a golf course...but then again I don't think Ruskin ever designed a lamp, a chair or a garden, but he sure had influence upon their design.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 06:54:59 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2006, 07:02:04 AM »
"TE
Did the professor read my essay?"

Tom MacWood:

I don't believe he has but when I contacted him I did make him aware of it and how to find it on Golfclubatlas.com. I hope he does read it and I hope he comments on it but from everything to date he mentioned to me about the A&C movement it would seem he'd view a connection between A&C and golf course architecture as very tenuous, at best.

But who knows, I'll let the professor comment on these kinds of things on his own knowledge of those times. After all the man certainly can be considered an expert on the Victorian Age and all that it involved which does include Pugin, Rushkin, Morris and the A&C movement.

Whatever he says about your essay, if he reads it, would definitely get my attention. I suggest it should get yours, as well. If he says he doesn't see much connection and if he says he certainly can't see that A&C could be considered some significant influence on GCA, and you once again refuse to take his opinion seriously as you have with everyone else who does not agree with your thesis and conclusion, then in my opinion it just continues to dilute and diminish your theory and the point of your essay.

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2006, 07:09:18 AM »
TE
How would you characterize his knowledge of golf architecture and golf architecture history?


Whatever he says about your essay, if he reads it, would definitely get my attention. I suggest it should get yours, as well. If he says he doesn't see much connection and if he says he certainly can't see that A&C could be considered some significant influence on GCA, and you once again refuse to take his opinion seriously as you have with everyone else who does not agree with your thesis and conclusion, then in my opinion it just continues to dilute and diminish your theory and the point of your essay.


Since the prevailing aesthetic at the time was influenced by Ruskin and Morris (especially in and around London where the heathland golf architects first broke through) why would they be immune from its influence?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 07:15:40 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2006, 07:35:55 AM »
"TE
Stickely was more than just furniture...have you ever read The Craftsman? Its hard for me a phathom where the professor came up with idea the A&C movement was strickly British. Any ideas?"

Tom:

Yes, I have read the Craftsman, but it seems like a long time ago now. I think I read it because of my sister. She has always been in and around the art world and artists, two or her husbands were artists, and the first one I'd say probably had some real connection to some arts and crafts influence---his style could be termed somewhat "primative interpretive" and I always referred to my sister and brother-in-law as "unreconstructed hippies" if you can get my drift and its connection to this general subject. ;)

The professor did not exactly say it was his idea that the A&C movement was strictly British. You should probably read my email quote from him again, as it appears you're a bit confused about that.

But you asked if I have any ideas why this professor seems to imply he sees no real connection to some other art forms, yes, I do have a few ideas about why he might've said that. I'll put that in the next post, because I believe that begins to really get to the meat and the crux of this entire subject and issue.




TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2006, 08:01:33 AM »
From the Professor:

"Dear Tom

".....As for the Arts and Crafts influence on the actual design of courses, I don't really see how that could work for two reasons: first, A&C was not so much a back to nature movement as a back to fine craftsmanship
and exploration of the intrinsic potentials of materials (wood,
ceramics, textiles) as opposed to machine reproducible gimcracks and poor design. Second, the obvious source of course architecture would have to be the history of landscape gardening about which there are a
number of important books. The topics to search under in a library catalogue include garden design, landscape architecture, etc

here are some titles from the Brown library:

Capability Brown And The Eighteenth Century English Landscape / Roger Turner

The English Vision : The Picturesque In Architecture, Landscape And Garden Design / David Watkin

The English Landscape Garden / David Jarrett

John Dixon Hunt has a half dozen books on the subject, too.

cheers

George"

Tom MacWood:

I think it is fairly plain to see from the above why he says he doesn't see much of an influence of A&C on GCA. It's not much different from what others on here have been saying to you for a very long while. Now, for his reason and why I think he might use that particular reason---eg different art forms---let's talk about that for a while, because in my opinion, that really is getting to the meat and crux of this entire subject and issue. See the next post.

By the way, this is the type of discussion we should've been having all along, not that I haven't been trying to.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 08:04:28 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2006, 08:12:45 AM »
Tom MacWood:

As for the reasons I think the Professor from Brown U's History of Art Dept would say he doesn't see the significant influence (actually he just said he didn't see the 'influence') please read once again this from my post #82. I think the reason is quite clear in it.

"Tom MacW:

In all fairness to you, and as I was just telling Paul Cowley, it would seem that your technique in analyzing and theorizing on these things such as the A&C and its influence on GCA (and the Golden Age) is to just keep trying to expand and expand and expand your subject's (the A&C) philosophy and the actual extent of it and its actual impact until it might be seen to influence most any art form or most anything at all.

Judging from what some of these professors of Art History and some of these experts on A&C, as well as a guy like PaulC who has both studied and worked in these various mediums have said, it would seem to me they are much more into the "contrast" side of these various art forms. You, on the other hand, have gone to the other extreme of the "compare" side to such an extent (including both real historic inaccuracy and just outright theorizing) of perhaps meaninglessness or just lack of edcuational value or interest.

You haven't gone quite this far but your technique of premise, analysis and conclusion is a bit like saying that the sun is the most significant influence on GCA and the Golden Age because the sun pretty much shines everywhere at some point and pretty much always has.  

I think it's fair to you to say that you've tried to go to real lengths to discover potential similarities between A&C and LA or even GCA while those guys who are the authorities on the subject (A&C and the Victorian Age) seem to be more interested in discovering the differences and distinctions between various art forms.  ;)

These are different ways to go, opposite in fact, and which technique and conclusions are the most interesting and educational I guess anyone on here can just decide for themselves. I know what I've decided and I know what I've pointed out on this subject in that vein and so perhaps I should just rest my case."
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 08:15:51 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2006, 08:18:14 AM »
Tom MacWood:

As for the reasons I think the Professor from Brown U's History of Art Dept would say he doesn't see the significant influence (actually he just said he didn't see the 'influence') please read once again this from my post #82. I think the reason is quite clear in it.



http://directory.brown.edu/search?search_string=landow

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #99 on: January 05, 2006, 08:23:32 AM »
Tom MacWood:

What is that for? I already know how to reach Professor Landow.

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