[Troy Alderson]

I believe this shows all of us the dangers of applying chemicals to control a weed quickly.  The best strategy to remove poa annua from the turf is to manage for bentgrasses and fescues through mimimal water and feeding the soil.  Slowly, slowly, slowly.  IMHO.

Appearently, an outside factor damaged the greens that was out of the control of the superintendent.  I would be interested in the source once they determine it.  I hope the superintendent did not lose a job.  If they did not then the membership is very understanding.  Three cheers for the membership.

Troy

[Sean Leary]

Troy,

We lost most of our 14th fairway this summer up here in Seattle using a chemical that was being used as a test to get rid of some poa.  Whatever it was it killed the Poa and the bent as well, when it was just supposed to kill the Poa. Eventually, my guess is that we will have to let the poa take over like every other NW course but we are fighting it for now.

[Michael Hayes]

Sean, I spoke with Paul about that when we played together last month...I can't remember exactly the chemical (I think it was the herbicide Velocity???)  Any how, the bent did not die as a result of the spray, but the resulting soil conditions were such that he could not get any bent (seaside) to germinate in the resulting bare spots...I know that he is still scratching his head over that one!!

[Troy Alderson]

Sean,

That is tough what happened north.  Seattle is a tough area to keep poa annua out, enough rain to practically go without an irrigation system all year.  I have always said the hardest thing to a superintendent to do is turn off the water.  Classic golf has been ruined with irrigation systems being abused.  I unfortunately am one who has abused the irrigation system also, but I am learning to keep it off as much as possible.

My suggestion is to go lean and mean on the turf with the fertilizer and irrigation.  If the poa annua can survive a lean and mean program then more power to it.  The other thing to do is three; drainage, drainage, and more drainage.  Keep it dry and the poa annua will deteriorate gradually.  I am reluctant to suggest this sense the superintendent must keep the membership happy with green turf, but the education of the membership for proper golf course conditions must start immediately.

Troy

[harley_kruse]

Graeme

I'm so  glad that the suspected rumour I heard last week about Woodlands was only that. the ol chinese whisper factor. Thankyou for the background to the Woodlands greens management situation.

Harley K

[James_Livingston]

Harley Kruse made mention of Woodlands greens. I have been offering advice re their maintenance.
This is the situation.
In 2001, to avoid total reconstruction because of the Poa annua content and the weakening Penncross bent, the maintenance program was altered.
Major gains were made but due to various factors these gains were all but lost between September '04 & May '05.
A rigorous program to eradicate as much of the Poa annua as possible that had regained a foothold began in July this year using Endothal.
Spraying ceased on all greens 4 weeks ago.  
Fertiliser has been used to redevelop the bent grass and a growth regulator has been applied to minimise the remaining Poa annua.
At present the greens have a very healthy cover of turf ranging from 85% - 99% Penncross bent.
The re-establishment of firm, fast & true putting surfaces without placing too much stress on the bent is now underway.

The greens were intentionally taken to the brink and at no stage did we "get into trouble from Endothal".

Graeme, was there ever any consideration given to allowing the greens to become predominantly poa?  I have played many courses in and around Melbourne over the past few years with largely poa greens which have consistently been of a very high standard, firm and true.  This contrasts with many of the bent green sandbelt courses where efforts to fight the poa have resulted in poor quality surfaces for extended periods.  Given a good bent green isn't really any better than a good poa green, is it worth fighting these constant battles to keep the Poa out.  Taking greens to the "brink" on a regular basis using chemicals such as endothal sounds like a risky (and presumably expensive) strategy.  I might be wrong, but fighting poa just looks like a battle that will never be won on more than a temporary basis.

[Marc Haring]

I must admit to be a traditionalist when it comes to greenkeeping and do wonder about the long term, unforeseen effects of chemical applications. It doesn’t take much to change the balance of nature and I personally would question the wisdom of changing the grass species so dramatically on such a classic course. The Royal Melbourne greens were renowned as some of the very best in the world for so many years so why change? Having said that, I am not familiar with the climate or probably more importantly, the political situation at this venerable club.

I think if you aerate intensively when you can, keep the water applications down, keep the height of cut up, plenty of top dressing and most important of all, keep the N applications as low as possible, then you will be repaid with problem free greens. They might not look perfectly uniform but they will perform about as well as they can.

I’ve pretty much eliminated all pesticide use on my course apart from a bit of spot treatment of selective herbicides and this year have applied just one light application of 4:2:15 liquid feed. At the moment we have got all our greens in play (we never have temporaries even in a hard frost), we have practically no disease, we’re mowing at 7mm and the members are saying they cannot believe how good and fast the surfaces are.

I know I am in a totally different situation to many but traditional greenkeeping works.

IMHO

[Steve Okula]

Marc,

Where are you located?

Each to their own. I managed Pennlinks greens in Tenerife, Canary Islands. They were absolutely Poa free, with little effort. The hot, arid, climate and sodic condiitons took care of that. The greens were good and fast at 5mm.

Here in northern France, I have 50/50 Penncross/Poa greens, mowed at 3.2mm, also good and fast. I do not battle the Poa, I manage it, and I don't have any real problems with it. Sure, it takes some fungicide, but I don't see that as a major drawback.

I use about the same amount of nitrogen in both cases, 11 grams per square meter per year.

I never met Jim Arthur, but from reading his writings it seemd to me that he was averse to Poa in the extreme, and that no amount of sacrifice in the putting surface was too great, or length of time too long, if it meant keeping out the Poa. There is a point of diminishing returns, and in some situations the greens may be better with Poa than without, and vice versa. There are no absolutes.

[Steve Curry]

I've adjusted to Poa/Bent and favor it now that I am comfortable staving off seed heads.  With good management it can be very fast, firm and smooth.

Steve

[Graeme Grant]

Grant

I am unaware of any weather conditions that could have caused a reaction to Endothal such as the one experienced at Royal Melb.
I'm sure that Jim Porter has checked all the variables in the application given that most or all the greens were sprayed and only a few were damaged.

Graeme Grant

[Marc Haring]

Steve

I'm located in the south of England. I'm probably in the same boat as you in that I've got about 40% poa and most of the rest is bent with a little fescue in there. I really don't mind poa either but what I have found is that if we are really mean on the N, even the poa toughens up to the point where it resists disease attacks pretty well. It's kind of where greenkeeping was at maybe 30 or 40 years ago when there just wasn't the money about to spoil greens and they ended up being very natural as a result. Of course with modern mowers and top dressers and verticutters and all that, we can improve on the quality quite a bit from where it was but the same basic concept of working with nature and getting the grass to the stage where it can look after itself is the key for me.

But I still agree with you. It's horses for courses and there is no way I would try and say everyone else is doing it wrong but when you hear of courses where the greens are just so reliant on pesticides; well you have to wonder!  

By the way, you used 11 grams per square metre; I used 1/10 th of that. Yes just 11 kilo's of N per hectare. As I said, it works for me but it may not work for everyone.

[Graeme Grant]

There are a lot of specific issues to answer or clarify.
Let me talk a little on my experience both as a player and a turf manager.
For the first 15 years of membership at Woodlands I played on Poa greens which were watered heavily in summer to keep them alive.  Fungal problems were always present and the surface was second rate.  They were converted to Penncross bent in the late 1980s and the surface quality changed dramatically. Consequently the reputation of the course was greatly enhanced.  The greens could be managed with less water which meant that they had to be approached from the angle the designer intended otherwise holding them was extremely difficult.  This was new to many players and really did highlight the quality of the course design.
Woodlands greens are very small, averaging around 350 sq.mtrs., and the course receives approx 50,000 rounds a year.  The traditional methods of maintaining the bent by minimal use of nitrogen & water were proving unsuccessful as they got older therefore something new had to be tried.  We have been able to regenerate the Penncross using these new methods and if they are adhered to there should not be any requirement to take the greens to the brink ever again let alone on a regular basis.  The proposed costly reconstruction should also be unnecessary.

At the Capital we have not applied any fertiliser for almost 2 years and have been able to starve out the small quantities of Poa that were beginning to show up.  The turf is Pennlinks and is kept at a stimpmeter speed of around 11 ft year round.  This is only possible because the course receives so little traffic.  Maximum 50 players a week (sometimes none).
Microbial stimulants have been used and do seem to strengthen the turf.  
Fairy ring is a problem though and is highlighted in hungry turf

I began my working life at Royal Melb. under Claude Crockford in 1967 at a time when the greens were renowned as good as anything in the world.  They were Poa free which, more than anything else, contributed to their trueness and speed.  Traditional greenkeeping methods were employed - barely any fertiliser applications outside of that contained in the topdressing of autumn & spring, no renovation and very little water. None of this though would have kept them Poa free without Lead Arsenate applications.  As soon as it was banned the Poa began its incursion.
Fungal problems and Poa invasion caused the initial change of grass type but the Penncross was more prone to the Poa invasion.  The new turf is something special and once the current problem is overcome should prove its worth.

The climate in Melbourne is not one that favours creeping bent varieties in winter but neither does it do much for Poa in summer without significant irrigation, fungicide applications and increased mowing heights.
James Beard said to me on a miserable late winter day some years ago that our climate was perfect for Poa. He hadn't experienced the heat of our summer though!

I hope this clarifies a few questions.

[Steve Curry]

Marc,

Have you had encounters with anthracnose?

I suppose being mean with N is relative, but a result of that on the extreme here really inundated us with anthracnose.  My response has been to up my N slightly and concentrate on improved soil conditions?

Steve

[Brian Walshe]

Graeme,

There has also been an issue at RM with some sort of fungus or moss in the greens.  1W and 2W were the worst when I was there a month or so ago but the stuff has been in a number of the greens for 12 months or do.  It seemed to be pretty difficult to get rid of.  Have you seen it and do you know what it is?

Brian

[Marc Haring]

Marc,

Have you had encounters with anthracnose?

I suppose being mean with N is relative, but a result of that on the extreme here really inundated us with anthracnose.  My response has been to up my N slightly and concentrate on improved soil conditions?

Steve

Amazingly no we havn't any problems with anthracnose although I would have thought that would have been the problem too. I guess as we only have about 40% poa we would get away with it anyway. I am still sticking to my theory that the low N creates a very strong cell wall that then provides too much of a barrier to infection. I believe it's all down to the nitrogen/calcium balance or something.

We do however get a real problem with fairy rings which just become so prominent that we have to resort to a little Heritage.

We did put on about 100 kilo's of N on the greens last year so there could be some residuals left in them and also we put on a great deal of top dressing that has a 20% organic based component which we have calculated adds an additional 40Kilo's N to the greens each year.

[Steve Curry]

Marc,

A friend of mine has had great results with applying the new wetting agent Revelution with fungicides for fairy ring.  Also, I believe he is using Prostar.

I went to school for engineering but have lost interest in thinking of measures in metric.  I suppose I will have to get back at it.  I went from applying 1.5-2 lbs N/m per year to 2.5-3 in order to combat anthracnose.  I also have tried to do more with organic sources.

I absolutely agree with your thought of keeping the turf strong.  One program I have found that makes a huge difference is regular deep needle tining, once a month.

I have seen significant turf loss do to a misapplication of a herbicide being used for moss control?

Steve

[Steve Okula]

[We do however get a real problem with fairy rings which just become so prominent that we have to resort to a little Heritage.

Marc,

How much is a little Heritage?

Our colleague Stuart Hallett at nearby St. Germain has had good success reducing fairy ring in greens by hollow tining and returning the plugs. He is registered on this sight, if you want to talk to him.

Speaking of hollow tining, how does that work with your low N? I put half of my yearly N out at spring and summer aerations to get the holes healed over as quickly as possible due to member pressure. Do you hollow tine?

[Michael Hayes]

I can report great success with a wetting agent/Prostar mix for fairy ring control...I had 14 greens with fairy ring in various stages of devlopment.  I even had a huge mushrooming fairy ring on my first green when I took over.  High rate of WA (4-6 oz/1000) and high rate Prostar (4oz/1000) applied post aerification to allow for good penetration did the trick, once in spring and in the fall. I can happily say I have been fairy ring free since 2000, with no further treatment...Alot of NW supers believe that Heritage has been linked to Fariy ring outbreaks...Heritage is almost a thing of the past in the Puget Sound region...
 

[Michael Hayes]

Many of the supers in the PNW that have fallen in love with Primo have seen their N rates Jump after years of contests of how low could you go...N at 1.0#/1000/yr were not unheard of 5 years ago, Now those same guys are Spraying 0.15 oz/1000 Primo every 10 days and have to feed upwards of 5#/1000/yr N.  I myself am at around 2.5 #N/1000.yr but have increased my iron to hold color better...

[Marc Haring]

Guy's

That's real interesting stuff about the fairy ring problem. I put on Heritage just twice a year in about June and August but I have heard there is a real link between Heritage and dollar spot which is being seen all over the UK since the intro of Heritage. It was just never seen before!

That Primo and N applications is interesting as well. Does this not all confirm the problem of using chemicals. It sorts out the target problem but before you know it you've created additional ones that were unforeseen at the time.


Steve

I hollow tine big time in March. In fact it is generally the mother of hollow tines but I just top dress in all the holes and wait for natural regrowth. No feed, just get the surface levels back and leave it. I have a few comments from the members but they actually putt quite well and then come May we get some natural growth and the greens are fine for their tournaments. Last year I put on 100 tons of top dressing following the hollow tine although that's on 2 hectares of greens.

Now could someone tell me what the UK version of 'Prostar' is because Michael's trick has really intrigued me?

[Steve Okula]

Spraying 0.15 oz/1000 Primo every 10 days and ...  I myself am at around 2.5 #N/1000.yr but have increased my iron to hold color better...

Those are awfully close to my rates of Primo and N.

[Michael Hayes]

Marc

Prostar is the chemical flutolanil. In the US it is made by Cleary's and is a 70% Active Ingrediant Product...

[Graeme Grant]

Brian,

I haven't seen the problem that you describe in the new  Royal Melb.greens but I managed Egmont browntop greens at Kingston Heath which were very similar.  Moss was a problem I had to deal with and interestingly it was always present in the RM greens of old.  Claude Crockford had a concoction of Ferrous Sulphate + Copper Sulphate + Potassium Permanganate which was applied to the individual areas. It set back the moss but because of limited staff numbers in those days follow up treatments were never enough and control was limited.
A product that has been developed recently by Nutratherm here in Melbourne is showing great potential. It is called 'Peroxytane' (I'm not certain of the spelling).  It is non toxic and tends to slowly dry out the moss.

[Brian Walshe]

Graeme,

How similar is the "new Suttons" to the original Suttons at RM?  I always thought that the old greens were a terrific surface to putt on.

Brian

[Graeme Grant]

Brian,

The Sutton's Mix was quite different to the current turf.
It contained stoloniferous or creeping bents that became coarse and rank when starved.  Velvet bent (Agrostis canina) was also present.  The presence of the creeping bents meant that a great deal of brush cutting was necessary prior to tournaments to prevent spiking up and fine them down.  A number of very fine varieties within the mix were susceptible to fungal problems such as Rhizoctonia which pre 1975 were controlled with the heavy mercury fungicides! It was said that fine fescues were originally there but I don't think I would ever have seen them due to the low mowing heights.
The current sward shows none of this variation up until now.
It is interesting to note that in the early 1970s Claude Crockford selected out the best varieties he could find and sent them to NZ to begin a breeding program that resulted in the grass I mentioned yesterday - Egmont browntop, and Sefton browntop.  Both produce very similar turf to the mix of browntops now at RM. So even then Crocky was looking for improvements.

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