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Mark_F

Re:Why has there not been a good Road Hole "template" hole??
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2006, 08:19:14 PM »

Doesn't everybody salivate in anticipation of reaching the 17th tee while they're playing TOC ?

Isn't it that element, the blind tee shot, that intriques so many golfers ?  First timers ?  And, repeat players ?

Patrick,

I think the 12th and 14th are more worthy of saliva.

The 12th has the eternal mystery of blindness also, but is potentially driveable, whilst the 14th just has so many options from the tee as to be forever intriguing.

The road hole is but a boring - albeit dangerous if you go along the right side - drive, and whilst the green complex may be pretty unique, I don't think the green itself is anything special.

Royal Melbourne West's 6th kills it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why has there not been a good Road Hole "template" hole??
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2006, 08:20:15 PM »
Tom Doak,

To couch the discussion in geometric terms, think "similar", not "congruent".

You have the luxury of creating dunes and/or mounds rather than buildings/structures at Bandon, so immediately, there will be a pronounced distinction.

But, the blind element is critical if you want to add the excitement, the doubt, and the unique presentation facing the golfer on the tee.

Obviously, the green is of critical importance, but, a blind drive, a carry over a dune or mound on a hole where the orientation of the green is so integrally related to the position of the drive with respect to the play of the hole.

More and more golfers will be venturing to Bandon.

Why not treat them to the experience many of us share, that of playing a replica* of # 17 at TOC ?

I don't share the view that a close replica of # 17 at TOC would be a blemish on the course at Bandon, or your design talents and reputation.  I feel just the opposite.  I think it would be a feather in everyone's cap.


*replica = understanding that formal structures won't exist and as such, the hole will be similar to, but not a copy of the original.

Bill_McBride

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Re:Why has there not been a good Road Hole "template" hole??
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2006, 10:18:28 PM »
Bill:

You're unlikely to find a good picture of #13 at Apache Stronghold, because there is this big dune inside the corner of the dogleg which blocks your view of the rest of the hole.  :)

But that dune would fill the role of the sheds or hotel, right?  As I recall it from my only play four years ago, it was a big sucker and you're right, it blocked everything farther down the hole just like the artificial obstacles.

Jim Nugent

Re:Why has there not been a good Road Hole "template" hole??
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2006, 12:43:38 AM »
If the Road Hole drive is not blind, how does it differ from the drive on a Cape hole?  

Doug Siebert

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Re:Why has there not been a good Road Hole "template" hole??
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2006, 01:33:08 AM »
Tom,

From my understanding of what you are trying to accomplish with Old MacDonald, if you attempt a Road Hole, I think it MUST:

- be dogleg right with OB right

- have a green as close to TOC's as you can make with a scary yawning bunker that sucks in shots rolling near it and the occasional poor chip or putt

- have a hard surfaced path immediately behind the green and a wall off to the side

- have a tee shot that is blind over some obstacle, ideally something that might make a resounding "clang" if you actually hit it (granted this is not really a worry with today's equipment, I remember worrying a bit about the potential embaressment of a thin shot on my first visit though)

- have lettering or something to allow people to determine their lines since a big rock or pole isn't appropriate on a dogleg where different people will want to take different lines

- having something to hit further to the right in the extreme OB area ala the hotel is mostly pointless, once you are there you are gone.  I suppose the worry about breaking windows might concern the banana ball set, but it won't worry decent players.  Though I gotta say as someone who hardly ever misses right, after I knocked one OB in the driving range on 16, that picture window in the dining room of the Rusacks looked alarmingly large and close to the fairway on #18 tee! ;D


Hey, now that I think about it, the lettering should read "Old MacDonald" then I can hit over the 'o' in Donald just like I hit over the 'o' in Hotel at TOC!  Jason is the first person I can recall saying he aimed at a letter other than 'o', maybe the 'u' reminded him of goalposts ;)

Anyway, normally I'd never dream of telling you how to do your business but I feel pretty strongly about this.  I just figure if you are going to try to do an homage to the greatest hole in the history of golf, you gotta do it RIGHT!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re:Why has there not been a good Road Hole "template" hole??
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2006, 02:53:28 AM »
The angling of the drive is the critical element.  The 8th at Piping Rock is far from blind.  However, there is an abundance of trouble right--bunkers, mounds, fescue, and a row of oak trees.  I think it is a much more intimidating tee shot than TOC.  The beauty of TOC is its uniqueness.  I would hate to see a duplication--but, if there were somewhere that an old building could be used, then that would be different.  Aside from Piping Rock #8, most of the metro-NY templates do not have as much angle as TOC on the tee shot.  Huntington #7 is dead strait off the tee and then is up over the hill and blind for the 2nd shot to one of the skinniest greens anywhere--40 yards by never more than 30 feet of width.

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