[Garland Bayley]

Given all the bad press trees (being a 3-dimensional hazard) get in GCA, I was pleasantly surprised to see this hole discussed in "The Anatomy of a Golf Course". When it is of the appropriate length, I find this kind of hole very interesting. As Tom mentions, the longer the drive, the more severe angle necessary to play the second shot through the gate. Could this be a Tiger proofing technique?

Part of the reason the design works on this hole, is because the trees are not too far from the green to make an approach from between or slightly behind them too difficult. This allows one strategy for playing the hole to be hitting the shortest club as the second to position ones self between the trees or in the center slightly back from them. This strategy is in addition to the attempts to curve the ball through the "gate" that Tom mentions in the book.

Tom mentions another use of such a gate at the entrance of a par three to encourage running the ball in. I prefer the gate on a "three-shotter", as it offers more choices on stragegy. What do others think about using a gate on par 4s and par 3s?

The book does not mention whether the course offers other tees for different abilities. I think the given 547 yards is an appropriate distance for top calibre players. If the hole approaches 600 yards in length, I think such a 3-dimensional hazard becomes too restrictive. I also wonder what others think about the length of such a hole for a) the Sr.-Sr. player, b) the average bogey player at a club, and c) the scratch player.

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

You're welcome to post the sketch of the hole from my book here for discussion if you know how [I don't]; I won't prosecute for violation of copyright.

I do think trees can be used as strategic hazards from time to time.  Yes, I know, the tree will die eventually, but that might be 25 or 50 years down the road, and if it makes the hole really interesting for that long, I'll take it.  However, one should consider what will happen when the tree dies, and try to insert enough interest in the hole that it will be okay after the fact.

There is a much shorter tee for the tenth hole which plays more from the left, at about 470 yards.  From there a long hitter can try to reach the gap with his drive, but he is taking the risk that he'll wind up stymied by the tree trunk and have to chip out for his second shot ... that's why we put in the back tee even though it's a much longer walk back to it.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

You're welcome to post the sketch of the hole from my book here for discussion if you know how [I don't]; I won't prosecute for violation of copyright.

...

I suppose the way to put the sketch in would be to scan the page in. Load the scanned file into Word, and then copy-paste it here. Unfortunately, I don't have a scanner to attempt this with. I would appreciate it if someone would post it.

[Garland Bayley]

Since I have no access to a scanner at this time, I guess I should at least post a description of Black Forest #10.

The hole is a 547 yard par 5 from the back tees. The distinguishing strategic factor is a pair of mature maple trees that narrow the fairway significantly at 170 yards from the front of the green. The landing area sits in a valley, so after an offline drive, the second shot must be curved through the "gate" in a direction opposite to the natural curve given by the stance. The strategy for the drive and second shot are what I find very interesting.

[Marty Bonnar]

Cursed be ye followers of Ned Ludd!



 
FBD.

[Andy Troeger]

Martin and Garland,
  Thanks for the diagram and descriptions. I'm planning on playing Black Forest next summer, and since I prefer not to play from the fairway I'll be interested to see if I hit it behind the tree on the left or the right    

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Martin for posting the sketch. Did you have any thoughts on tree "gates" on golf courses?

Garland

[Garland Bayley]

Bump

 

Who's played it?

What do you like or don't like about it?

[Jfaspen]

I've played it.. Twice this year and once last year.

The tee shot is slightly elevated.  Trees are on both sides of the fairway and make the tee shot more intimidating than it should be.  Additionally, this is a hole you feel like you can get home in two on, so I tend to swing harder.  I think I hit two poor drives on this hole this year..  

I think it makes a good match play hole.  It should be an easy 3-shotter.  I've not had the trees come into play on the approach.. I think the tree on hole 3 bordering/covering the right approach comes more into play.  

Here is a photo of the hole taken earlier this year.. You can see the spoken of trees down the fairway.

[Michael Whitaker]

Where's the sketch?

[Andy Troeger]

Hmm...I had good intentions at the time but I'm afraid I never made it up there...and then I moved to New Mexico on top of things!

[Garland Bayley]

Where's the sketch?

Martin's photobucket account is private now, so the sketch doesn't appear. I sent him a message asking him to open it up or email me the sketch for posting.

[Garland Bayley]

Jeffrey,

I was able to click on your picture and see a lot larger picture. I believe I can pick out the trees of the gate in you picture. I am quite surprised at how narrow the whole hole looks, given it is a TD course. Did you use telephoto when you took the picture?

[Marty Bonnar]

Garland,
image re-instated. Overzealous housekeeping...

cheers,
FBD.

[Garland Bayley]

The 18th at my home course is a hole very much like this one. Coincidently, Philip Young posted this quote from Tillinghast today.

...
"I like to see the Home hole looming up from the teeing ground in a mighty, impressive way. When a match arrives there on even terms, let that hole reward the courageous. There is more yellow spilled over the teeing grounds of good Home holes than at any other spot on the course."
...

Also coincidently, I came to the last hole one down last time playing it and hit a big drive to perfect position to get through the gate, whereas my opponent "spilled" yellow "over the teeing ground" and my pocketbook was saved for another day.

PS Since our gate is composed of mature Douglas fir trees, there is no way over it.

[Jfaspen]

Jeffrey,

I was able to click on your picture and see a lot larger picture. I believe I can pick out the trees of the gate in you picture. I am quite surprised at how narrow the whole hole looks, given it is a TD course. Did you use telephoto when you took the picture?

I did not take the picture, and I do not believe a telephoto was used.  As I stated in my post.. The hole looks deceivingly narrow from the tee, but feels expansive once you actually get into the fairway..  This photo appears to be taken from the far right of the tee box if not somewhere off of the tee.  I remember the hole being pretty much straight away.

Jeff

[Garland Bayley]

...This photo appears to be taken from the far right of the tee box if not somewhere off of the tee. ...

That explains why it looks narrow in the photo.

... this is a hole you feel like you can get home in two on, so I tend to swing harder. ...

Didn't the narrowing of the fairway by the tree gate influence your selection of tee shot at all?

Here is the full size photo.

[Steve Lang]

   Garland,

Prequalifications..
I've played Black Forest 1-2 times every year since it opened back in ~1991,.. even toured it while in development.. its my home course when on vacation at family cottage on Blue Lake not far away..  have walked it several times, but no need to do that anymore..   I play normally from 2nd tee in from tips

The 10th begins a more parkland-meadow type setting after several rather treacherous holes, and scoring opportunites are more realistic to think about, but still very challenging to manage.. the 10th is a real trap for the "power hitter"

I can't believe that many players look at the 10th as a 2-shotter through "the gate", it is for this mere mortal, all about accuracy/placement, and dealing with that last tree on the right.  

I have most success with 2-wood, 2-wood, short iron to green than anything else.. the room for "placement error" with driver off tee is too great.. i don't care what the sketch says!  You have to be on middle-left side of fairway, inside the gate on approach shot..


p.s. behind the green is no picnic, unless you like picking berries in the pricker bushes..

[Garland Bayley]

Steve,

Similar thoughts to mine. I thought I had posted more about my playing my home hole on this thread, but I guess I must have posted it elsewhere.

I agree about the "trap" for the power hitter. Too much off line, and he is sunk. I play the hole differently depending on my status in my match at the time (and the match has reached the hole). If I am down, I hit driver, and try to get home in two. Otherwise, I play safe with 5 wood, lay up, wedge.

Of course if the match is over by the time we reach the 18th, I try to go for it in two for the fun of it, and get lots of practice hitting recovery shots.

[Bill_McBride]

Here's another excellent "tree gate" hole - the fifth at Tokatee in Oregon:



These trees are only about 100 yards from the green so affect the approach, which is typically with a short iron as the hole is only 388 from the tips and 343 from the blue tees.  You really need to be near the centerline to avoid having to play over one of these big old firs.  The green also has a lot of slope around its edges, so it's even more demanding than it would appear just looking at the scorecard.  Fun hole on a fun course.

[Garland Bayley]

Bill,

Under what conditions would you choose different options off the tee at Tokatee?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Under what conditions would you choose different options off the tee at Tokatee?

There are really no options for me on that hole, Garland.  Unless I've been duck hooking my driver, it's usually the straightest club in my modern bag.   The only way I've found to play #5 in my half dozen rounds there is to try to keep the tee ball down the centerline.  Otherwise it's too easy to get blocked out by one of those large trees, which I guess get more formidable every year!

These are two of those trees that would be difficult to replace and would definitely change the nature and character of a golf hole if lost to lightning strike, wind or disease.

I understand a lot of serious trees were felled by the recent big winds out there, very sad.

[Garland Bayley]

That's what I thought Bill. As I tried to indicate earlier, I think the described gate on a par 5 is more of a risk/reward situation, whereas on a par 4 it seems to be more of a shot testing situation.

[Peter Nomm]

We had a debate over two trees during the first few years of my course's existance (Minocqua (WI) CC).  A large oak restricts the tee shot from only the back tee on the par-5 12th, forcing the player to at least hit it dead straight if not fade it.  On the par-4 18th a tall pine had the same effect on the regular and forward men's tees but had no interference on the back set.  We have since removed the pine on #18 and have left the oak on #12 with the theory that if it is going to affect play, it should only influence the highly skilled player and not the everyday golfer.  Given the highly treed nature of the course's surroundings, it fits to have a few trees throughout influence some of the shotmaking strategy.

[Michael Whitaker]

Back to Black Forest #10...

I've played Black Forest several times. As a left handed golfer, it's interesting to me that I have not given the idea of a "gate" that much consideration on this hole. I usually find myself on the right side of the fairway, then try to hit a second to somewhere around 100 yards short of the green and wedge in from there. The tree on the left gets my attention, but until reading this thread I have not given much thought to there being a "gate" on the hole. It's been a couple of years since I have played Black Forest, but if my memory serves me the right hand tree is higher up the bank and therefore a good bit more out of the way than the left tree. The hole plays down hill and has an open front green that gives the big hitter chance to get home in two by running one onto the green.

I'm sure the next time I play this hole I will give the "gate" too much consideration and snatch or push one into a tree!!!

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