GROSSE ILE G&CC: A Ross Gem In The Detroit River

[Sean_A]

It does look as if more trees have come out.  Dan, is this due to storm damage and later removal or planned?  Is there any plan to improve the bunkering?  How bout a high fairway (running along or part of #11) for the 14th - making the tree more of a centre-line natural hazard?

Ciao

[Dan Dingman]

Sean,

My first winter here we removed about 35 trees. All of these removals were around green sites and/or in front of bunkers. With these 35 and the Ash tree removals a few years ago, the property has really opened up to some nice vistas.

As far as #14, we have taken the fairway line out on the left side, in front and around the fairway bunker so there is equal opportunity on both sides of the tree. Lay up short and right of the tree = easier approach - Bomb it long and left of the tree with driver = steep approach shot and you cannot see the putting surface.

Bunkering has been discussed and no doubt needs to be improved to compliment the wonderful greens. Hopefully things will turn around here in Detroit where future improvements can be made.

DD

[Sean_A]

Dan

Cheers!  It all sounds very promising.  Hopefully I can come have a look the next time I roll through town. 

Sean

[Richard Hetzel]

Thanks for the updated pics. I am playing here Monday morning, GAM golf day. Can't wait.

[Sean_A]

All, take a look at the updated course review.

Ciao

[Jon Heise]

My opinion is that GI is the best course within an hour of The D...

[JWL]

Sean
Thanks for the pics.   I have played in several tounaments at GICC through the years including the GI Invitational with my long time friend John Czarnik, and also qualified for the US AM there in 1981....so I have some good memories of the course.
I also have a memory of always thinking that the 18th hole that was a par 3 and ran directly across the back of the clubhouse seemed to be an afterthought.....like only 17 holes were routed and they added one when they realized the problem    I have read much about Ross' involvement but I wondered if this was one of the courses where maybe he didn't have that much input and just put out the original stakes and mabye also didn't spend much time during construction at all.    The 18th green always seemed so different that the rest that that also made me wonder.   Please note that I am not suggesting this, but that I have always wondered just how involved he actually was.   In reading on GCA, it seems that there is ample documentation that would put to rest my 'wondering', so I am not challenging that in any way.   If you have anything to add or clarify on this wonderful course, I would enjoy reading about it.
Cheers

[Sean_A]

Sean
Thanks for the pics.   I have played in several tounaments at GICC through the years including the GI Invitational with my long time friend John Czarnik, and also qualified for the US AM there in 1981....so I have some good memories of the course.
I also have a memory of always thinking that the 18th hole that was a par 3 and ran directly across the back of the clubhouse seemed to be an afterthought.....like only 17 holes were routed and they added one when they realized the problem    I have read much about Ross' involvement but I wondered if this was one of the courses where maybe he didn't have that much input and just put out the original stakes and mabye also didn't spend much time during construction at all.    The 18th green always seemed so different that the rest that that also made me wonder.   Please note that I am not suggesting this, but that I have always wondered just how involved he actually was.   In reading on GCA, it seems that there is ample documentation that would put to rest my 'wondering', so I am not challenging that in any way.   If you have anything to add or clarify on this wonderful course, I would enjoy reading about it.
Cheers

JWL

I would be willing to bet money Ross spent time on the site.  First, the greens are superior to any Ross course I have seen/played with the exception of Oakland Hills.  Second, Ross was very busy in the area during 1916-1921.  Grosse Ile is less than an hour from the high profile Oakland Hills.  That said, I think McGovern's (could be Hatch) name is on the plans so I suspect Grosse Ile is likely a collaboration. 

The clubhouse used to be on the southside of Bellevue and was rebuilt on the north side after a fire.  This is why the 18th seems out of place.   There was an existing nine holes and who knows, maybe the greensite wasn't changed much from the original course.  I should also note that the houses on the right of #12 and behind #11 used to be GIG&CC land and nine holes was planned for the site.  Shortly after the fire which destroyed the house this land was sold - sometime not long after WWII. 

Ciao

[Sean_A]

My opinion is that GI is the best course within an hour of The D...

Jon

Zowie.  High praise indeed.  Can you explain why you think GIG&CC is better than Oakland Hills, Franklin Hills etc?

Ciao

[Jon Heise]

My opinion is that GI is the best course within an hour of The D...

Jon

Zowie.  High praise indeed.  Can you explain why you think GIG&CC is better than Oakland Hills, Franklin Hills etc?

Ciao

Well, as a Downriver guy, maybe I should have put it as an hour's drive from there, not just Detroit.  I've yet to actually play Oakland (walked it a few times) or Franklin, though I look forward to seeing them someday.  GI was for a long time my "I live close and want to play to play so badly but don't know a way on" golf course.  I've since had about a half dozen trips.  Obviously the greens are as good as it gets.  It's definitely a course that you can't get a total feel for in pictures, you really have to be out there and walk it to appreciate it.  It's just got a great flow to it, even with the significant hills.  Is it as big and mean as Oakland?  Nah?  But it's always a course for me where maybe I'll hit a few more range balls, hit a few more putts the week before I'm scheduled to play, just because I want to bring my best when I'm there...

[Sean_A]

My opinion is that GI is the best course within an hour of The D...

Jon

Zowie.  High praise indeed.  Can you explain why you think GIG&CC is better than Oakland Hills, Franklin Hills etc?

Ciao

Well, as a Downriver guy, maybe I should have put it as an hour's drive from there, not just Detroit.  I've yet to actually play Oakland (walked it a few times) or Franklin, though I look forward to seeing them someday.  GI was for a long time my "I live close and want to play to play so badly but don't know a way on" golf course.  I've since had about a half dozen trips.  Obviously the greens are as good as it gets.  It's definitely a course that you can't get a total feel for in pictures, you really have to be out there and walk it to appreciate it.  It's just got a great flow to it, even with the significant hills.  Is it as big and mean as Oakland?  Nah?  But it's always a course for me where maybe I'll hit a few more range balls, hit a few more putts the week before I'm scheduled to play, just because I want to bring my best when I'm there...

Jon

I love Grosse Ile and feel lucky to have grown up learning my golf there.  However, when I look at the course from a critical perspective there are shortcomings with the design.  Many people will point to the valley/high areas for the tee shots which seem repetitive, but this in fact is an incredibly clever aspect of the design.  The site was originally quite wet and the valleys still get very wet with rain so it was important to come up with a layout which best dealt with this issue.  Also, after playing a few games folks would realize the subtle differences in these tee shots and just hopw varied they are considering the given template of high tee/high green.

No, my biggest issue beyond the aesthetics of the trees, cart paths and wishy washy style of the bunkers is the placement of the bunkers.  The bunkers are not used well to create angles for the approaches or "Sunday" hole locations.  They are merely plopped to catch weak shots rather than entice players to test their mettle.   I also think some of the greens could have been more at angles (obb long shapes etc) to contrast with surrounding land and thus eliminate the "need" for some green side bunkers.  Finally, the fairways have virtually no bunkers.  With the hills there are opportunities to create dramatic looking tee shots which would likely play easier than they look.  If I had the money and Grosse Ile were my club, I would bring in a top notch archie to reconfigure and shape the bunkers right after cutting down lots of trees - tee hee.  Once this is done the cart paths could be tackled.  The bones of a wonderful course are there, they just need to peel away a bit of fat to get to them. 

Ciao  

[BCowan]

S,

    GIGCC is a great course.  I stumbled across this thread and thought it deserved a bump.  The course has very good bones and the greens are top notch.  Your last post was very informative and I will re-read it again the next time I play the course.  Great photo tour.  Was the tree in the fairway on #14 original Ross feature and what are your thoughts on it?  I have only played the course once. 

[Sean_A]

Ben

To my knowledge the tree on 14 has been there a very long time.  It was mature when I was a kid.  Of course, back then there was no upper fairway.  I am not sure if that was a Ross concept or not, but it was nurtured into play by D Dingman (I think) several years ago...and it makes absolute sense. 

Its been sometime since I played Grosse Ile...I sure do miss the ole girl.

Ciao 

[BCowan]

S,

    I must say GIGCC impressed me again today.  The greens are the best Ross I've played. They have surpassed Broadmoor  (IN).  If only they could turn off the sprinklers and install more drainage.  I have many trees in mind for removal too. 

    Also on many of the holes it seems as though greens committees planted trees on both sides of the fairway in the DZ (Gotta protect par).  A few greens have trees surrounding the greens blocking views and design features (#5 and #17) just to name a few. 

    I think GIGCC is my favorite opener in the Detroit area.  It surpasses #1 at OLCC.       

[Jon Adkins]

I enjoyed GIGCC, as well.  The greens are phenomenal.  Conditions were soft, though, and I'd love to play them when firm and rolling a little quicker.

Some of the tee shots were monotonous with the hills (17 was my favorite, though), and the bunkering could be improved. As others have said, some significant tree removal would be a boon, too.

For what it's worth, I liked the tree on 14, and wish I'd read this thread before playing that hole. Short and right is where you want to be; trying to hit a low, running shot under the tree to the elevated green is no easy task.

And Ben, while I do think the first is a solid opener (more than a friendly handshake with that uphill approach when playing into a stiff wind), it's no No. 1 at Orchard Lake, which I loved.

[BCowan]

More tree removal on the right at 14 is needed, the preferred angle.  If GIGCC went through a 3 million dollar reno u would see the opening hole shine.  Tee shot is much more fun and everyone bogeyed the hole. 

The cart paths are all over the place and really detract from the course which us unfortunate

[Sean_A]

The first at Grosse Ile and Orchard Lake aren't terribly different...especially if GI cleared the trees left on the drive and short right of the green.  GI's green wins hands down...as is the case for practically the entire course, but that would be the case for nearly every course on the planet.  I never realized growing up that I was playing on the pinnacle of greens until many years later.  Still, I plop for OL because its the finished product whereas at GI we talk about coulda, shoulda, woulda. 

GI has always been a wet course....I really don't know why this is the case. Though I do suspect the land is a bit swampy and was never properly filled when built...hence nearly all the greens are on high spots well above fairway floors.   

Ciao   

[Sean_A]

After a yet another trip to the Carolinas where I saw more examples of how hills were dealt with, I am only now fully recognizing how wonderful Grosse Ile's routing is.  There isn't nearly as much as the standard down n' up to plateau greens as we see at so many courses...especially Ross designs.  While there are still some, importantly, the theme is mixed up quite a bit and that can be seen when we actually think of the holes.  The nature of the land and remediation required to make the land suitable for golf dictates that for the most part greens need to be on high ground...any other approach would have been foolhardy. Yet exploration of how to create diversity above and beyond how the greens distinguish the holes (still, one of the best sets I know!) is quite evident.  By my theory, there are actually no straight forward down n' up holes. 

#2: Down n' up, but with a blind second to a long flat approach...not a plateau green.

#7: Down n' up, legs left and has a long approach of which much is flat...not a plateau green.

#10: Long downhill drive to reach dip.

#11: Flat drive sharply turning left to reach dip.

#14: The dip is most of the fairway and it isn't that deep.

#16: Down n' up, again, with a long flatish approach zone...not a plateau green.

#17: Long flattish drive to reach dip as it turns right.

Among the two valley holes:

#1: Pretty standard double dipper

#3: Double dipper, but shoulders intrude in fairway

#5: Double dipper which turns just enough left

#9: Like the third, double dipper, but a shoulder juts into the fairway

#12: Double dipper, but shallow dips

#15: Pretty standard double dipper

To me, this approach to tackling the hills is far more interesting than some of the courses I see elsewhere which are far more inclined to be simply up n' down.

The only non par 4 which is flat throughout is #8.  While I think it would be good to have a few more flat holes, I am sure it just wasn't possible given the land...and must also remember that an additional 9 holes was meant to be built on the land along #12.  Who knows how or if this land would have been used in an 18 hole routing if the 9 holes were never planned.

As time goes on...I see Grosse Ile in a different light and have gained a greater respect for something which I took for granted as a kid.  Its a shame the bunker, cart path and tree issues aren't sorted, but there you have it.

Ciao