[Kelly Blake Moran]

I'd like to see the insertion of more centerline hazards and more diagonal cross bunkers, but, I don't see anything that would indicate a trend is developing toward the use of those features.

When was the last time you heard of a club, that was undergoing a renovation or modernization, inserting centerline bunkers or diagonal bunkers ?

 

Pat,

I don't know the breadth of your travels, but I don't think making this statement makes it true.  It may not be happening on a grand scale, but it is happening.  

Your original question regarded courses hosting PGA events I believe.  The 99.99999% of other course I don't beleive benefit in any way by narrowing the fairway 300 + yards out from the tees.  An averge player who probably is 350 yards out on two shots may or may not be impacted as you wisely pointed out, however I have found that widening of the fairway and strategic bunkering or some other features including bringing exisitng trees into play just off the fairway can do so much more than narrowing.  the real hazard with narrowing the fairway is they will simply lay back and accept a longer approach shot.  The real key I think on new courses is to put more of the land into fairway which brings more of the sloping terrain into play, make the fairway edges near exisitng tree groves a good alternative giving you an instant hazard, center bunkers as you wisely mentioned, and interestingly this same strategy works on exisitng courses as well.  I am not as excited by Bob Crosby's idea of contouring the ground to create the sloping fairway, rather you need to find that terrain in the routing phase, or if not available then rely on other means such as trees, bunkers, etc.  The thread started with the pro and the driver and accuracy for which there may be few answers other than narrow fairways at least on the types of courses the PGA chooses to play, maybe more wise choices of venues is neccesary.  In fact it would be interesting not only to start a premier tour but do so in conjunction with the selection of some premier courses, in that way you may be able to introduce more of the interesting elements like the sloping fairways and courses whose original design put a premium on shot placement in the fairway in relation to approach angles to greens, coupled of course with throttling back the ball as you suggest.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Patrick,
You mentioned that ..."with drives becoming so long, that narrow, more dangerous area for the drive is also the zone for the second shots of lesser golfers.  Hence, when you implement the theory you mention, you unduely penalize the average to poor golfer."
If the average bogie player hits a drive 200 yds. he's going for or at least trying for the green with his second. If he then hits a 3 wood 160 he's now 360 from the tee and beyond the area of the great majority of anyone's tee shots. The longest average drives on Tour seem to fall just over the 300 mark.Concentrating on the area from 280 to 320 wouldn't seem to overly impact the average bogie player. The poorer players, say those with 160 yard drives and 120 yd 3 woods, wouldn't feel the pinch either. They would be hitting their third shots from just short of the toughened-up area to well beyond.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly Blake Moran,

I think you have to seperate existing from future courses.

I don't know of any existing course that would alter their fairway contours to  present a challenge to great players for four days out of the year, leaving their members to deal with those conditions the other 361 days of the year.

One of my points was that rough no longer constitutes a scoring impediment when golfers are hitting the ball great distances and leaving themselves Lob wedges and Sand Wedges into the greens.

While my travels have been limited, I' haven't seen or heard of one renovation-modernization where center line bunkers and diagonal cross bunkering was added to the golf course.
It's counter to the golf culture in the U.S.

And, when you introduce features other than rough, those features have to interface, in a non-penal way, with the members the other 361 days of the year.

It may be that:

1     New Championship courses should be designed for the
       sole or primary purpose of hosting Championships.

2     The I&B should be rolled back.

3     The penal nature of golf should be reinstituted through
       design efforts to old and new golf courses.

Jim Kennedy,

I've been playing with a group of about 16-20 fellows for the last 40 years,  Their handicaps and games are very diverse.
A drive that carries 200 yards is a big drive for most people, and probably beyond the reach of 99 % of woman golfers.

In addition, your premise would imply perfection on every shot for the mediocre to poor golfer.   They don't hit it dead solid perfect with 200 yard carry drives and 175 yard carry 5 woods.  They mis-hit their drives and their second shots, thus penal features in the 300-360 range can adversely affect their games, and pace of play on the golf course.

Rough, it's narrowing and expansion might not be so bad if the rough was restored to its pre-competition configuration.
But, we all know that everyone wants to play the same golf course that the best players in the world play, and thus, courses are rarely returned to their pre-tournament configuration.

A rollback of the I&B seems the most prudent choice.

[TEPaul]

"When was the last time you heard of a club, that was undergoing a renovation or modernization, inserting centerline bunkers or diagonal bunkers?"

Pat:

Good question. We came within a whisker of putting in a centerline bunker scheme on our 15th hole---a pure Ross hole. It was an extension of some old depressions on the inside of the dogleg in the trees that sure looked like old Ross bunker formations that may've never been sanded. I wanted to take out all the trees on the inside of the dogleg and extend a center bunker line scheme right on out to the center of the fairway. The bunker extension was basically a copy of the shapes of the center bunker line at NGLA.s #8. Gil drew it up and it was on go untill at the last minute they gave us seven items to reconsider because of objections. The first five past again, this scheme was sixth and moving the wonder 10th green was last. I pulled this scheme out myself to save the 10th green. It would've been great---eg the tee shot was an option of driving to the right of the center-bunker line risking OB, driving to the left of them with a much longer shot in or risking trying to drive right over the last one which was identical to the last bunker in NGLA's center bunker-line.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Anytime the insertion of a centerline bunker complex is put to a membership vote, it's going to be defeated in the U.S.

It's a matter of culture and lack of understanding with respect to the benefits.

If on the other hand, I could arrange for a membership to play Wild Horse, the vote just might go through, but, it would still be a tough sell.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Pat,

I know you were talking about a tour course, but again I know of two existing courses under renovation right now with new fairway bunkers in the center and more to come.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I do agree with a narrow fairway at all Majors.

If that is the case then you must dislike The Masters the most as they have the widest fairways and least penal rough (usually) of all of the majors.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly Blake Moran,

You'd have to admit that that's the rare exception rather then the rule, but, it's certainly a step in the right direction.

Perhaps guests will see this work and seek to have similar complexes added to their courses.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Anytime the insertion of a centerline bunker complex is put to a membership vote, it's going to be defeated in the U.S."

Pat:

No, actually that center bunker-line scheme on #15 passed through the membership. It came into being because of a "trade" with a group of members who objected to the planned removal of all the trees on the inside of the dogleg on the next hole (#16). To have the trees remain on #16 continued to make holes #15 and #16 play quite similar. So in exchange for leaving the trees on the inside of the dogleg on #16, this idea was hatched of removing the trees on the inside of the dogleg on #15 and replacing them with a center bunker-line scheme (remember this was bascially an extension of some old Ross unfinished bunker depressions on the inside of the dogleg in those trees).

This center bunker-line really would've made the drive play very interesting (much more so than it ever had). It made Gil a little nervous at first because this was a pure Ross hole. A lot of the members were enthusiastic about it but when we (the committee) were given that list of seven items to reconsider and the first five went through again I could see that we might have a problem if all seven went through again and the last thing I wanted to risk was a vote to move that 10th green. So, since this item was #6 I told the committee  since the center bunkerline on #15 was my idea initially I wanted to remove it from reconsideration only if the last item (#7), the recommendation to move green #10 could be turned down. And so that's the way it happened.

The objection to the center bunkerline scheme actually came from the President of Merion at that time and he simply said he didn't think it was a good idea to change a pure Ross hole at this point. He had a good point there even if many thought that center bunkerline on #15 was a good idea to enhance the interest, challenge and fun of the hole.

In retrospect I'm sort of glad it happened that way because although I know the hole would've played better, after-all #15 really is a pure Ross hole and will now remain that way.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Another thing to seriously consider in this recommendation of yours (and mine to an extent) to add bunkering wholly within fairway area of some of these older courses is that very few of them ever had those kinds of bunker schemes originally.

When I made that recommendation to do a center bunker-line scheme on our #15 I searched everywhere to try to find out if Ross had ever done something like that. I only found one instance of it and it really wasn't much of a match to what I was proposing which was far more a mimic of Macdonald/Raynor's NGLA #8.

Although there wasn't much question that the center bunker-line scheme on our #15 would've made the hole play much more interesting there's no question it didn't look much of anything like Ross's style.

For better or for worse one really does need to seriously consider sticking with the over-all style of the original architect in most of these restoration/renovation projects.

[BCrosby]

TEP -

Interesting point about centerline bunkers in the US. For all the talk over the years among US architects and commentators about the greatness of The Principal's Nose at TOC and the centerline bunkers on the 6th (?) at Carnoustie and elsewhere in the UK, they are missing in action on US courses.

At Athens CC, Ross designed (and ACC built) several cross bunkers, but they were either topshot bunkers or affected approach shots. He designed a very strange centerline pot bunker (the 9th) that would have been well beyond the range of even the longest golfers (until recently), but it was removed in the 50's.

Bobby Jones insisted on a centerline bunker on the 11th at ANGC and it was built. Dead in the middle of the landing area. It would have been partially hidden from the original tee. A wonderful idea. But it lasted only a year or two. No one seems to know why it was removed.

Raynor built some Principal's Nose holes. The 17th at Yale comes to mind. The Bottle Hole at NGLA is another. Nicklaus has done a number of them, though mostly on par 5's, which removes some of their teeth.

But such features are rare and they are disliked intensely in the US. Something that is both a puzzle and a distinguishing feature of the American golfer's mindset.

I do think they (together with other things) would be an effective deterent to some of the flogging we see from the big boys.  

Bob

 

[TEPaul]

"Bobby Jones insisted on a centerline bunker on the 11th at ANGC and it was built. Dead in the middle of the landing area. It would have been partially hidden from the original tee. A wonderful idea. But it lasted only a year or two. No one seems to know why it was removed."

Bob:

I believe I know why that blind center bunker on ANGC's #11 was removed. I cannot remember where I read it but very early on it was violently crticized by someone who Bobby Jones may've tended to pay attention to---eg HIS FATHER!  

It is interesting that very few center fairway bunker features and such were done in early American golf architecture (The "Golden Age"), at least not in the tee shot area. Cross bunkering of course was quite popular with some early architects (ex. Crump) but those are not the same kind of feature, in my opinion, that bunker center bunker features such as a Woking was. The cross bunker feature as used so prevalently by Crump was generally more designed for and relevant to second shots as drives. Of course it's pretty logical that American Macdonald would've used that center fairway bunker feature a bit since he did pull so many concepts and features right out of European prototype holes.

(Here's an interesting fact about the "Principal's Nose" feature on one course in early American architecture. Colt designed a "Principal's Nose" bunker feature (He actually called it that on his hole drawing) into the 9th at Pine Valley for the tee shot but somehow it ended up on the side of the fairway. However, the "Remembrances" from both Smith and Carr explained that Crump had every intention of swinging the hole and the fairway well to the right to turn #9 into a dogleg left. The question is if he'd done that would that "Principal's Nose" that still remains on the right side of that fairway have been in the middle of the dogleg left fairway?).  

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

It's clear that centerline bunkers aren't accepted as part of America's golfing culture.

Do you think the rejection of penal features was a response to some of Pete Dye's early importations and the ruckus raised by the tour pros ?

Could heavy cart use in the U.S. be a factor ?

If more golfers could play Wild Horse the perception might change.

The 8th at Hidden Creek has a wonderful centerline Bunker that dictates play on the hole.

[TEPaul]

"BCrosby,
It's clear that centerline bunkers aren't accepted as part of America's golfing culture."

Pat:

That's just another good example of how you have eyes but you don't see and how you have a mouth that works without your brain!

I don't think you can say that bunkering completely surrounded by fairway area is completely counter to America's golf culture. Most of these types of hazards in America have been done recently, and not in the "Golden Age" as so many seem to suspect. If they aren't popular over here today then one must conclude that Doak, Hanse, C&C, DeVries, Hurzdan and Fry, Kay, Weed, Procter and Axland and probably a good many others aren't popular in America. Sentiment today would seem to suggest otherwise.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Name a golf course that underwent a renovation or modernization and added centerline bunkers or a diagonal cross bunker.

The number of centerline bunkers and diagonal cross bunkers (rough to rough) that have been built by the architects you mention is miniscule.

Those features remain counter to the culture of golf in America.

Narrowing, not widening fairways is the mindset of the bulk of the golf clubs in the U.S.  Suggesting the insertion of centerline bunkers and diagonal cross bunkering would not be greeted with enthusiasm.

The average clubmember-golfer sees the PGA Tours on TV every week and wants his golf course to emulate what he sees on TV.

This is why I was disappointed that NGLA wasn't awarded the Walker Cup.

Everyone's seen Merion, with its narrowed fairways.

Noone has seen NGLA and it would have been a tremendous eye opener and educational experience for the golfing world to get a glimpse of some world class architecture and features, including centerline bunker complexes and diagonal cross bunkering.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

  I believe White Manor ,outside of Phila. , is a renovation with at least one centerline bunker complex added.

 Several years ago  Downingtown , a modest public course that is quite short, added several crossbunkers to test driving.

[JESII]

trouble is, nobody watches the Walker Cup.

The education you speak of is, in my opinion, the number one way to change the direction of golf course design and redesign moving forward. I'm no expert, but I'd bet there are plenty of golf course architects that'd be very excited about their clients asking for this type of feature playing a prominent role in their course.

Who is your target for this education?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Green Committees and Boards

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Name a golf course that underwent a renovation or modernization and added centerline bunkers or a diagonal cross bunker."

For starters two would be White Manor, a course about 1/2 mile from my house and the other would be my own course GMGC.

"The number of centerline bunkers and diagonal cross bunkers (rough to rough) that have been built by the architects you mention is miniscule."

I certainly wouldn't say that. A center bunker surrounded by fairway grass is a neat feature but probably not something one would want to do on half the holes of a golf course or even a third or a quarter, for that matter. If it were done that much it would probably be viewed as over-done.

"Those features remain counter to the culture of golf in America."

Again, you just aren't recognizing the obvious. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the holes that have those features in America or say something like they run counter to the culture of golf in America. Now might be a good time for you to get used to just letting go of some of the stupid things you say on here. That remark of yours is definitely one of those.  

[BCrosby]

Pat -

If more people played Wild Horse, a LOT of things in the world of gca would change. (I'm not being facetious.)

The Bottle Hole at NGLA exemplifies for me the American dislike of centerline bunkers. While MacD and Raynor replicated many of the holes at NGLA, the Bottle Hole was not one that seemed to travel very well. At least I don't know of many replications of it.

That's a puzzle, because it appears to be a wonderfully sporty hole. And maybe that's the issue. Americans don't much like sporty holes. They take their games too seriously to toy with. You got your winners, you got your losers and people who are out to just have fun ain't right in the head (as they say down this way). I dunno what the deal is. But whatever it may be, the deal in the US is very different from the deal in the UK. And - I think - it's our loss.

Bob      

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You just finished telling us that GMCC rejected adding a centerline bunker complex and now you tell us they added a centerline bunker complex.

You're confused.

GMCC didn't add the feature so why tell us that they did.
Would ofs, should ofs, could ofs don't count.

Naming White Manor as the ONLY other course to inject a centerline bunker complex tells you that the feature hasn't been accepted by the golfing culture in the U.S.

BCrosby,

With all of the modern earth moving equipment and large budgets I can't understand why more "bottle holes"  haven't been replicated.  

It is a wonderful, sporty, challenging hole offering a variety of strategic options starting with the drive.

One would think that replicas would exist in abundance.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Patrick,

I see a tendency in some holes with centerline bunkers, or cross bunkers for the fairway to actually widen to its greatest width beyond the bunker(s), but still with preferred angles or sides of the fairway depending upon the pin location or ground features in front of the green.  I don't think putting a bunker in the middle of the fairway makes the grade because there is so much more to consider in the arrangement of the hole that must go in to the decision as to how to make the center line bunker strategic.  I don't think random placement works.  I see a lot of center line bunkers on modern courses but the strategic value is sometimes hard to figure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly Blake Moran,

Do you think that the cost to reconfigure the irrigation lines might be an impediment to inserting them on existing golf courses ?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

You just finished telling us that GMCC rejected adding a centerline bunker complex and now you tell us they added a centerline bunker complex.

You're confused.

GMCC didn't add the feature so why tell us that they did.
Would ofs, should ofs, could ofs don't count."

Pat:

I'm confused?? What's the matter with you buddy? I told you about a center bunker scheme that was proposed, passed, and then pulled by me. Did you see me say that was the only  bunker at GMGC surrounded by fairway that was inserted in a restoration/renovation project?  

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

When I was working at Piping Rock under Pete Dye's name in 1986, we put in a Principal's Nose type hazard in the middle of the tenth fairway (a short par 5).  If you were playing the hole as a three-shotter you'd just play short of it, but if you wanted to get there in two you had to fly it or squeeze past on one side or the other.  It was my idea and I got the project chairman, Woody Millen, to endorse it.

It was there for less than a year before they took it out, thinking it was just too severe.  I learned from that experience not to think about adding a controversial bunker to a course unless I had the benefit of history on my side.  I'll still do them on my own courses from time to time, though.

Nicklaus has a lot of central fairway bunkers on that May River course which opened last year -- it was interesting to see him do it but I think he might have done it a couple times too many.

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