[ForkaB]

Interesting news reported in today's Times (and other papers) regarding the "fraternization" betgween the US and Canadian troops and the local women in 1942.  The Times headline reads:

"GI's in West End were led astray by 'young sluts and vicious debauchery."

The birth rate in Britain rose 25% from 1939 to 944........

[BCrosby]

Rich -

I suspect the bump in the birth rate had less to do with debauchery and more to do with the simple fact that there was a lot more "b & i" available.

(Doing my best to get this thread back to a golf topic.)

Bob

[TEPaul]

Bob:

It's a good point you make about the perhaps underlying reasons for the conservative tactical and strategic plans of Montgomery during parts of WW2 compared to some of the American generals and their alternative plans with fresh troops.

The campaign known as "Market Garden" could be the best example of that Montgomery conservatism compared to the tactical and strategic inclinations of some of the American generals obviously the best example being George Patton.

"Market Garden" (apparently Montgomery's basic plan), however, may've been hurt most by Montgomery's failure to tap into the Dutch underground for information probably due to conservatism or just plan suspicion on his part.

The fact is "Market Garden" was perhaps the largest single airdrop in the history of war---Polish, British and American paratrooper divisions dropping in and around Arnheim and Njmeigan Holland.

What they all apparently failed to realize (which they would have if they'd talked to the Dutch underground) is they were dropping in right on top of an entire German panzer division that was entirely under camouflage as it was low on fuel but certainly not low on ammo. This (Market Garden) was what became known as "A Bridge too Far".

It's one thing to read about something like this but for me the most poignant thing of all was to hear about it from the Dutch girlfriend I had for about a dozen years (who was about 10 years older than me, that would account for the fact that she lived through WW2 ).

She and her family lived in Njmeigan which was within just a few miles of the German border and Essen, Germany's munitions center. Unfortunately in bombing raids she and her family and Njemiegan took it on the chin far more from the Allied bombers who were just a little off in their grids going after Essen and the Ruhr just a few miles away.

But she said one day they looked up and the day turned dark because out of the sky were dropping thousands of Allied paratroopers, British, Polish and American airborne divisions. She said she and her sister sat on top of the roof of their house and cheered as the American 82nd or 101st US Airborne divisions dropped into fields no more than one mile from them. She said after all those years of war in Holland they thought they'd be liberated in less than an hour.

But the British and Polish were getting totally clobbered in Arnheim up the road by that panzer division, the last bridge could not be secured (Market Garden depended on all the bridges being secured) and the American airborne divisions never got to Njmeigan and instead of being liberated within the hour Mieke Sprengers and her family and the Dutch would not see the end of the war for another year.

How poignant is that?

[BCrosby]

Tom -

One of the reasons Monty promoted Market Garden was because he thought it would provide a short cut into the Ruhr, and thus shorten the war.

He was deeply worried about his ability to sustain the wide front slugfest that Eisenhower wanted to pursue.

Bob

[ForkaB]

TEP

One of my first real jobs was with a company whose Chairman was "Jumping" Jim Gavin--who commanded the 82nd Airborne Division in Market Garden.  A friend of mine was a good friend of Gavin's and told me that Jim curtailed his co-operation on the movie version of ""A Bridge Too Far" when he learned that Ryan O'Neil was going to play his part, rather than the General's choice, Paul Newman.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Right, I think the tactical and strategic theory of "Market Garden" was to isolate the Ruhr (Essen, the German munitions center (The Krupps)) that would cut off Germany's munitions supply and cause Germany to say "Uncle".

Rich:

I don't blame Gavin for cutting ties with the movie for casting O'Neill instead of Newman. Those generals like "Jumping Jim" Gavin can spot a real man vs some Hollywood playboy better than about anyone!

Speaking of that movie, and if my memory serves me right, which it may not, the research into "Market Garden" for that movie got close to home---like my Dad.

I guess there were some heavy-weight Hollywood types around Palm Beach who were talking about doing research for the movie. The book was obviously incredibly popular and if you read it you will remember the character of the British officer by the name of Digby Tatum-Water.

Tatum-Water was a British airborne officer perhaps commanding something like a company, maybe larger but he dropped into Arnheim and of course proceeded to get cut to ribbons by that German divsion the allies did not know was there. Digby Tatum-Water's men were pushed into some buildings and backed up against the river and their morale was totally shot and it was curtains.

Well, that didn't sit well with Digby and since (like all good English gentlemen) he parachuted in with his bowler and umbrella, he apparently said "f... this" and he put on his bowler and unsheathed his umbrella and charged the German tanks on foot. That rekindled the British morale for a time although Digby got all shot up and thrown in some locked room by the Germans. Somehow Digby slipped out and dove into the river and was gone and that was about the last most anyone ever heard of Digby Tatum-Water.

But not Dad. He used to go to Kenya on safari now and again and who did he start to pal around with out there? You got it---white hunter Digby Tatum-Water.

So I guess Dad said to someone doing research for that movie; "I know where that character is, and you'd never guess". So Hollywood actually found Digby Tatum-Water.

I'm not sure what Digby told those Hollywood guys other than:

"If my character can't be played by Sean Connery I'm not saying a thing to any of you city-slicking Hollywood fairies!"

[TEPaul]

Furthermore, the mention of Sean Connery will serve to get this thread back on topic of golf and architecture. The one and only time I ever met Sean Connery was in Nassau when he was making Thunderball. A couple of us got basically trapped in a house at Love Beach in Nassau as Connery was just about to have a tryst with the wife of the mayor of Nassau.

Believe me, they (Connery and the woman) were as surprised to run into us as we were to run into them. But that was the time Connery first got addicted to playing golf, an addiction that continues to this day and so back to the subject of golf and golf architecture.  

[Sean_A]

The death of young British men in WWI is staggering.  I live in a small village of just under 700 people.  Sitting in the memorial hall is an opener.  Over 60 men were killed in WWI.  Only 6 men aged 17-25 survived the war.  The village never fully recovered from this devestation.  Before the war, the village was self-sustaining with small businesses and farms.  After, it eventually became a bedroom community for Brum and Coventry area businesses.  

Ciao

Sean

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Returning this thread to golf, there were 679 clubs established or public links opened in England between 1890 and 1914.  There were 209 between between 1918 and 1939.

I agree that does not prove anything, as many of those 679 were rebuilt in some way between 1918 and 1939. Nor does it take into account such places as Wentworth or Sunningdale which had more than one course.

However, I have to say that from my researches so far into club archives, and committee minutes in particular, each of the clubs with which I am currently engaged suffered hugely from members being away for the duration of a war - they were away and paid no subscription.  Each of these particular clubs offered some kind of courtesy of the course to military personnel stationed locally.  On the whole, during the First World War not too many members were killed and that may be because most of those who played golf came from a class which tended to become officers.  It was the ten years or so after each war that really presented problems.  Hartlepool, for instance was in a desperate financial position after the end of the Second World War and was so into the 1950s until the military eventually paid money owed to the club for its occupying half the course plus the clubhouse for most of the war.  New members simply did not come along and most clubs were struggling on a membership of under 200, which in English terms doesn't make sense.  

I'm not going to get into a slanging match about which courses are of world-renown and which aren't because most on this site have heard of Liphook, Ashridge and absolutely everybody of Beau Desert, but I'm sure other Brits on this site would back me up in saying that they're still hardly known outside local circles by the majority of British golfers.  The barometer is how few Brits and foreigners living in Britain contribute to this site.  Let's also see how sales of the new Golf Course Architecture magazine go.

I'll do some research with regard to Country Life in particular and its golf coverage.  I will not be able to do it this week - I'm all over the place in the next few weeks, but I will do so, I promise.

[Sean_A]

Mark

There is no question that few Brits and Yanks know about the 2nd tier gems of The Isles.  In fact, I would venture that few even know the top tier inland courses except for the obvious few famous ones.  I would even be surprised if many knew some of the famous links courses that aren't Open venues.

Additionally, I would be most surprised if more than mere handfuls of people are/were interested in architectural pedigree.  

Ciao

Sean

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Thanks Sean,

You play a lot of golf here on a lot of different courses and you meet a lot of ordinary golfers.  Your opinion on this is valuable.

Ask some of the older people you encounter if they were aware of Country Life golf articles (they were still going when I first started taking an interest in this sort of thing).  I'd be curious to know how many were aware of it.

Mark.

[Sean_A]

Mark

Are we talking articles from the 20s and 30s or did these archie articles get published later?

Ciao

Sean

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Yes, they were still around in the 50s and 60s, maybe longer.

I'll get in touch with Country Life.

[Philip Gawith]

Sean's post 59 is spot on - I would not move a comma.

[T_MacWood]

Mark
There is no doubt there was explosive growth between 1889 and 1914...I stumbled across research that claimed the number of courses in the British Isles jumped from 106 to 1801 during this period (I think your numbers are low on both counts). On the other hand the first half of this period was not exactly marked by stellar architecture.

And although there was a slowdown, comparatively, between the wars, that period was not a whitewash. It was a period of modest, but steady growth, very good to great golf architecture and wealth of architectural writing and debate...thanks to Darwin, Hilton, Ambrose, Simpson, MacKenzie, Campbell and others. And not just in the major golf magazines, Golf Illustrated and Golf Monthly, but also in The Times, other newpapers, and wide vareity of magazines from Country Life to Vanity Fair.

I agree with you that perhaps the upper class (typical Club member) were less likely to be a war casualty (although no doubt they lost their share too). As far as I know no golf architect was killed during the war...although HH Barker was wounded and years later died from complications....Guy Campbell was wounded and CK Hutchison was a POW.

"As for the magazine articles - VERY FEW people read them.  They may have been of high quality but a lot of those buying Country Life ignored those articles as much as they ignored the classical music page, which also died about the time they stopped writing about golf.  This was a time when magazine and newspaper proprietors and editors were not driven by sales/reader figures but by what they felt ought to be there - just as dear old Radio 3 did when I joined, but certainly did not when I left."

I'm not sure how you arived at this. How did you conclude people did not read these articles (in The Times, Golf Illustrated, Golf Monthly and variety of other sources including CL)? Have you checked the letters to the editor in The Times from 1910 throught the 1930's? You'll find plenty of architectural banter...including a letter from Max Behr via Guy Campbell. The founders of CL, Edward Hudson and George Riddell (later Lord Riddell), were astute businessmen and made a fortune in publishing. Quality & substance and driving sales are not mutually exclusive. His death (Hudson's death) in 1939 has been cited as the beginning of the magazine's downfall....he has been credited with being the creative genius behind the magazine's success.

I would not be surprised if the typical Brit today was unaware of Liphook or West Sussex, however I would be surprised if the typical Brit of the 1920's--who was regular reader of The Times or Golf Illustrated--was not well aware of both.

[TEPaul]

"Returning this thread to golf, there were 679 clubs established or public links opened in England between 1890 and 1914.  There were 209 between between 1918 and 1939."

Mark:

If those numbers are accurate it'd be interesting to see how many clubs were established and public courses built in the States in that same time period. I don't know how to find that out but someone on here might. I think it's pretty safe to say the "Roaring Twenties" was a massive boom time for the construction of courses over here. Clubs established here in that tme period probably isn't that representative since many clubs over here were moving and constructing new courses farther outside the older metropolitan areas.

As for the popularity of these golf and architecture magazines and articles and their influence on golf and architecture on both sides of the Atlantic back in those times it would be nice to know more about that, including Country Life's section on the subject. One thing that seems obvious in an historical context is none of them were able to sustain their contributions in the area of golf and architecture all that long. And on that note one wonders why. Country Life is an interesting magazine with a long running history in many areas other than golf, that's for damn sure. It's hard for me to believe that Country Life magazine from its inception until today is not one of the most locked in "class-strata" magazine perhaps in the entire history of English speaking publishing.

[BCrosby]

From my brief research through periodicals in the '20's (I would like to do more. It's a trip.), a couple of things emerge:

- Some magazines treated golf like hunting, fishing, hiking and other outdoor activities. In the UK this was the approach of Country Life Magazine and The Field Magazine (sometimes referred to as British Field), both upper crust English magazines whose natural audiences were sportsmen with country estates and a house full of weekend guests to entertain. As golf became more and more popular and developed its own mass media, it was covered less and less by these magazines.

- Magazines that focused on golf were no less upper crust. Golf Illustrated, Golf Monthly, The American Golfer (T.Mac may know of others) were directed at a pretty insular, well to do crowd. They mainly covered tournament results, as you would expect. But they also devoted a lot of column inches to golf courses and golf design. Certainly vastly more than golf magazines did later. Behr, Tillie, Crane, MacKenzie and others made regular appearances. Richardson and Tierney (sp?), the NYT golf writers at the time, seemed to publish a lot on new golf course designs. There was remarkably little space devoted to instruction.

For wingnuts like us, these were much better magazines than the current fodder. Some fascinating debates about design issues, course quality and so forth.

Bob

[T_MacWood]

"One thing that seems obvious in an historical context is none of them were able to sustain their contributions in the area of golf and architecture all that long."

TE
I think that was particularly true in the States, but I believe economics due to the Depression was the main reason.

The British magazines had a good long run despite two world wars...I'm not sure when Golf Illustrated went under, but was still around in the 50's. And what was Darwin's tenure at The Times...50+ years?

It seems to me golf architecture and golf architectural writing go hand in hand. I'm not sure which come first, the chicken or the egg, but they seem to sustain one another. And the opposite is often true.

[BCrosby]

T. Mac -

Golf Illustrated went under in the mid-30's. 1936 I think. It was reincarnated a couple of times after WWII. In each case with new owners.

Almost all golf mags were gone by the mid-thirties. One that tried to fill the void was National Golf Review. It was one of the best golf magazines every published, but it only lasted a couple of years. Maybe three. I think it too was out of business by '39.

I read smewhere that Behr owned GI until about 1919/20. He sold it to investors that appear to have been based in NYC. I'm not sure about my source. Could that be right?

Bob

[T_MacWood]

Bob
I was referring to the British version. There were two Golf Illustrateds--a British and American--completely separate entities. The British version goes back to the 1890's. The American magazine I believe began in the teens.

[TEPaul]

"For wingnuts like us, these were much better magazines than the current fodder. Some fascinating debates about design issues, course quality and so forth."

Bob:

You're not kidding they were better on this subject than the current fodder. At least the content of some of those articles was so different from today.

Haven't you noticed that some of them were so into maintenance too? But obviously that was understandable back then as there was so much to learn on that subject---eg there were so many repetitive mistakes being made. Today the golf agronomy business doesn't seen to think there's a need for that kind of content as now golf agronomy has become a billion dollar industry built on constant processes of expensive remediation of every kind for almost total agronomic hybridization. It's about as far removed from a naturalistic way as one can possibly imagine.

So maybe the time has come for the Scott Andersons and Scott Mays of the business to start to write about dialing back to organics. But can you imagine today's golf magazines allowing their articles in with the advertizing dollars that contribute to those magazines from the world of modern agronomics that's going the other way?

On the subject of architecture articles in the 1920s it may be interesting to note the USGA's Green Section "Bulletin" that I believe sent out a letter to most all American architects to contribute articles on their philosohies on golf architecture. I have a hunch that's perhaps why Behr began to write on the subject.

At some point, though, he obviously began to run afoul of the USGA for other reasons and in other areas.  

[John Yerger]

One book that I don't see discussed regarding matters of British golf architecture that would provide a brief discription of architecture is Darwins "Golf Between Two Wars". He devoted an entire chapter to the issue.  He wrote, "distinguished artists who gradually evolved them (architectural principles) all remained after the war. John Low was still there as a preacher to uphold his favorite doctrine, that golf should be "a contest of risks", and Messrs Colt, Fowler, Simpson and Abercromby, to name four leading professors, were all more or less busily at work and built themselves enduring monuments, alike in the designing of new courses and the "reconstructing" of old ones."
Darwin discusses the efforts of Abercromby at Addington, Colts changes at Holyake.  It is worth reading. Darwins opines on the evolution of hazards and the effects of "modern equipment".

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