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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Primrose path or road to future?
« on: October 16, 2005, 01:09:19 PM »
I've never re-printed an article as many have on GCA.com, but couldn't resist this since it is from my home community, and this Green Bay CC effort when first developed beat my effort to the local market in 1992, to develop strictly a quality golf course and modest club house.  The issue then was whether the local market wanted a solid golf only well designed club, or were they looking for a full service facility with traditional full service country club ammenities.  The GBCC started as a rather full service facility, with decent F&B, good practice facility, swim pool, no tennis however.  It had a full subscripiton of members immediately upon opening (pretty much cornering the market and getting ahead of the effort our group was making to prospect for local members in a golf facility centerpiece and limitted F&B facility.  

The course that GBCC built was a Dick Nuggent design.  Barely walkable, and hardly anyone does, and pretty much standard cookie cutter architecture.  Maybe a Doak scale 5.

The full subscription of members began to decline (as we have seen across the country) partly due to the rising costs and assessments, and partly due to other facilities opening that offer more affordable golf.  I know of a few who even dropped out of GBCC to buy a season pass at our county course which is arguably a better and more enjoyable test of golf (though no where near the conditioning of GBCC on the aesthetic side).  The county now has a restaurant facility that is affordable and good food and good service.

So, if you are interested in this sort of thing, and many of you have been through this drill with your own local club experiences, what say you about the the approach being taken by this GBCC club to boast membership, and provide more ammenities and activities, but at a higher membership cost?  

Do you think they are being led down the primrose path to be a better club, or following a well worn road to greater financial failure that many other clubs have reportedly followed?


By Lee Reinsch
lreinsch@greenbaypressgazette.com
BELLEVUE — The Green Bay Country Club breaks ground today on a $3 million addition aimed at making the grounds more family friendly.
A new clubhouse, which will accent the current clubhouse, a larger swimming pool with diving boards and a 130-foot-long water slide, lighted tennis courts and an 18-hole natural-turf putting course are among the changes.
The groundbreaking celebration will be a rare chance for the public to see the grounds of the exclusive club. The public is invited for an open house that will include a continental breakfast and tours.
“The expansion was always part of the long-range plan, ever since the concept of the club was born in 1991,” clubhouse manager Jeff Johnson said.
Over the last 10 years, use of the country club got to the point where parking was scarce, the pool often crowded, tee times were frequently filled and the need became clear that an expansion had to be made. Plus, “we had a large desire to have tennis out here,” Johnson said. “We had a lot of people who were waiting for tennis courts before they would join the club.”
Current food service operations allow for “a limited menu” in the facility’s formal dining room of the clubhouse, but the expansion will “allow for a more extensive dining experience” Johnson said.
The new expansion is about a quarter-mile west of the main clubhouse. It brings the total acreage of the country club grounds to 306 acres.
Chad Gouin, 22, employee of the country club, said he thinks the expansion will be well-used by members.
“It’s a good idea because the club’s growing,” he said.
The expansion will mean 20 more jobs in the area, including a tennis pro and assistant, wait staff, lifeguards and kitchen manager.
Green Bay Country Club opened in May 1995 and is the brainchild of several members of the Green Bay business community.
Features of the expansion include:
• A 15,000-square-foot clubhouse and cabana with full-service restaurant and potential for a health facility, golf swing area and game room in the future.
• 7,500-square-foot outdoor swimming pool, whose zero-depth entry will make it accessible to those in wheelchairs. The pool will feature a 130-foot-long water slide for children and six 75-foot-long lap lanes for lap swimmers.
• Six lighted tennis courts, which will be usable until midnight most days, weather permitting.
• Six Par 3 holes.
• Elevated driving range tees.
• Practice bunkers.
• Putting greens.
• An 18-hole natural turf putting course.
• Tennis pro-shop.
“We wanted to make this a destination site,” Johnson said.
The pool, tennis courts and cabana are expected to be finished June 1, and the Par 3 golf holes are slated to be completed in spring 2007.
The new pool — 230,000 gallon capacity — will replace the existing pool, which has less than half that capacity. Grounds superintendent Marc Davison said the existing pool will be leveled to make additional parking spaces. Two houses will be razed to make way for the expanded area.
Johnson said the $3 million for the expansion came from increased dues and additional initiation fees for social members and does not include the price of the land.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 01:11:50 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2005, 01:12:26 PM »
Wow, they can do all that for only 3 mil? Harding Park should be like Disneyland....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2005, 01:34:46 PM »
If the tee sheet is frequently filled, why do they need more members?

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2005, 02:18:19 PM »
Sean, while the article says that tee time sheets were frequently filled (and I have no definitive information) I tend to think that the course is not comparatively busy with golfers.  I don't ever notice that many golfers out there.  It seems to me that they are going for significantly more social members, banking on profit margins of F&B and ammenities.  But, I could be wrong.  Isn't that the point of negative experiences in funding big upgraded facilities with so many other clubs?  Isn't it fairly common that ammenities (giant pools, tennis, and bigger clubhouse social stuff) what gets more maintenance intensive, labor intensive, and drains the coffers to require more and more increases in dues, etc.?  Doesn't that forebode that golf has become a by-line in many experiences?

They have a very highly respected superintendent who is capable of excellent GC maintenance.  But, it seems to me that the maintenance of the course will not be the big focus or attraction.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brent Hutto

Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2005, 03:14:41 PM »
I know nothing about those sorts of operations, just curious. How many months a year will all the non-golf stuff be open? I'd guess the water park aspect is probably early May through Labor Day-ish. Will the restaurant and all that be year round? The whole thing sounds like a subscription amusement park to me.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2005, 07:03:09 PM »
RJ,
I don't know if their choices represent the best mix of amenities but there is no way to fault the idea of more broad based recreational venues at a "Club" that would appeal to families. If you want Dads with young children to return as your core golfer it doesn't hurt to give the kids something to play at too. Moms might also get more active on the course and it doesn't hurt to keep everyone at the facility for a longer period of time, makes them feel like they're getting their monies worth.
What were clubs like ages ago? Get out of the city, spend some quality time recreating, have your family about, relax, unwind, live the good life. That's not a bad model to follow going forward, the positives are numerous.

Kids have a better chance of learning the game and picking up the values associated with it.
Having more youngsters around could help in establishing a caddie program.
Future memberships from those who are already familiar with the culture, i.e., the youngsters.
The course itself could benefit from younger players who have learned to take better care of it while they played with their parents. That's also a two-sided coin, as you well know if you have kids.  
Dads may get more guilt free time on the course.
Moms  "     "     "      "      "     "     "   "       "
Costs are relative. The more the facilities are frequented the less expensive they become, on a per use basis, and if it helps foster closer family relations, well, that's priceless.

The negatives? If you don't like to see women or hear children a place like this wouldn't be your cup of tea, but I'm sure you could find something suitable elsewhere.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2005, 07:27:30 PM »
If the club thinks they are going to increase their bottom line and cash flow by taking on additional debt and increasing F&B operations, they are smoking the wacky weed.  I don't think many clubs correctly allocate overhead to the cost of F&B (or the attempt to increase F&B).  In a mature market with a short golf season, how successful are they going to be adding full memberships?

After just completing three years on the board of an equity club with really poor finances and a dwindling membership, all I can say is, thank God I'm going off the board!   :-\
« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 07:28:18 PM by Bill_McBride »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2005, 07:44:33 PM »
Bill,
It says in the article that they want to make it a 'destination site'. Sounds like they are also appealing to a younger market.
Look at the demographics of the village: There are 11,828 people, 26.9% are under 18, 9.6% are 18 to 24, 36.1% are 25 to 44, 20.2% are 45 to 64, and 7.2% who are 65 or older. The median age is 33 years. The median household income $53,672, median income for a family is $62,299.

Family-club-with-lots-of-toys, here I come!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 07:45:39 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2005, 07:55:16 PM »
Jim, what I would need to know is how many full members now, how many required to make the new budget.  If they can't make the new budget, it's too late to go back to the old budget.  

That's when you start down the spiral to bad finances, required assessments, higher dues.  Lousy maintenance, little PM results from little left over in the budget.

You don't want to know how I know all this!   :P

I have a hard time believing a town of 11,000+ with the demographics you outlined can support a club with all those amenities!   We did a lot of demographic research when we started planning for the rebuilding of Pensacola CC after Hurricane Ivan destroyed our clubhouse and highlighted the poor condition of our fine but soggy old, sea level course.  We have 175,000 in our MSMA and only 3% market penetration of the >$100,000 income level.  By contrast, Mobile has 9% and Birmingham has over 12%.  That's total members of private country clubs.  We are the only private club in Pensacola but there is a lot of competition from "semi-private" clubs.  But PCC is the only club with the private club amenities.

Hopefully our new course and new clubhouse will turn things around.  Right now I'd say it's a crap shoot.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2005, 01:22:36 AM »
Bill,
A quick search reveals about 192,000 people in the Green Bay metro area and Bellevue looks like a suburb (just a guess, I defer to RJ) that's just far enough away from the city to be called a country club but close enough to tap into a good number of that population.  
I have no idea whether GBCC will succeed or fail with their project but I do think the idea of using non-golf amenities as a lure, especially ones geared to families and younger people, is a good one. It's similar to what resorts offer so why would it not have a good chance of working at a private club?  

       
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2005, 10:53:07 AM »
Jim, you are correct in that the club serves the greater Green Bay area with a pop base over 200K.  The other club in this strata of full ammenity membership is Oneida Golf and Country Club.  The Green Bay CC was built, as was my effort in the early 1990s in response to the fact that Oneida (a club started in the 1920s) had a full subscription with an endless waiting list.  Oneida has since done a full upgrade to very large and extravagant facilities as well.   There are a couple of other regional CCs of far less ammenities, but far less costs too.  

The thing that I think is significant is that many original subscriber members reportedly dropped because of assessments and costs.  I have heard several say the course is not all that good, and then there are certain cultural characteristics of the club membership that I have heard expressed negatively.  The best way I can describe what folks have told me is the difference between the old Oneida club and the new GBCC is one of the neveau riche VS the old conservative money in town, and pretense at the new place.

It seems to me, that the ammenities that are being expanded upon are those which many folks get at their health clubs which are numerous, very state of the art YMCAs (we have three in town) and two tennis clubs here.  

Also on the kids front, there is a daily fee course down the road from GBCC where the yearly junior membership unlimitted play is $175 a year.  Many complain that it is like a baby sitting service in that folks drop their kids there in the morn and leave them all day to play golf and goof around.  

But taking the discussion to the broader concept, are the greater percentage of these sort of ammenity upgrades (bigger pool-water slides, tennis, banquet and F&B that tries to become top of the line gourmet cuisine, formulas for a money pit of downward spiral, all mitigating against the notion of a decent golf facility.  Or, is it sound planning for future club success, if we are to look at wide spread experiences of other similarly managed upgrades?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primrose path or road to future?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2005, 06:47:19 PM »
RJ,
Where is the 'club experience' heading? With the age of the baby boomer upon us many people head for the south or southwest, leaving memberships behind, and buy into real estate/golf projects. Who is going to fill these memberships up, not the dad alone, at least not in the same measure as happened 20 or more years ago. How many wives in this day and age demand the same recreational opportunities as enjoyed by their husbands? How many men and women have a renewed sense of sharing time with their families? I know several guys (especially younger ones) who have cut back on their golfing due to family obligations.

There are two privates near me, one about 20 miles north, the other 20 miles east and they are about 30 miles from one another.
The northern club has an excellent golf course that was built over 100 years ago with some remodeling by Banks in the 1930s. They keep the course in immaculate shape and I don't think there would be anyone on this site who wouldn't enjoy playing it, plus it suits the games of a wide variety of handicaps. They also have several tennis courts and a building for those players. Alongside the clubhouse sits a pool. There is a lower grill room/bar which is mainly frequented by the men but occasionally you'll see women there. A restaurant/ballroom occupies the upper floor of this gambrel roofed barn like clubhouse.
The memberships for the course, tennis and pool are always full yet a quick round is the norm. I never hear anyone complaining about the club losing money.

The club to the east has an excellent golf course that was built over 70 years ago with some remodeling to be done by Ron Forse. They keep the course in immaculate shape and I don't think there would be anyone on this site who wouldn't enjoy playing it. This course is the harder of the two and is not as friendly to higher handicap players but fast play happens here, too. There have never been any tennis courts and there was a pool but it was taken out years ago. The clubhouse is more modern than the northern club. It has a grill room/bar that is also top heavy with guys plus a restaurant area and separate area for large events.
The membership here is usually full too but I hear some occasional gripes about the restaurant losing money.
Neither of these clubs is within 30 miles of a city containing 100,000+ people.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can have it many ways and still keep the golf within focus. Any club that is lagging in participation numbers needs to take a good look at what segments of the population their future members might be coming from and make the changes necessary to attract them. If its families, you might need more amenities. If its women, you probably would be well advised to offer them the same level of services you offer to men, and so on.  
« Last Edit: October 17, 2005, 06:49:30 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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