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Brian_Gracely

The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« on: October 06, 2005, 10:43:25 PM »
http://www.bombsquadgolf.com/invboard_release/upload/index.php?s=492dc4003b26d8c585279820c4f7b379&showtopic=87875

On Jan.8, 2005, some of the sacred GCA.com ground (Rustic Canyon) will be invaded by the Rocket-launcher toting fellas from BombSquadGolf.com.  I think it's only fitting that some of GCA's local afficiandos shoud find a way to attend this event and intermix yourselves.  

This has all the makings of the Bizzaro episode of Seinfeld, played out in the flood zone across the street from the Brad Klein estates.  

Tommy N., D.Moriarty, D.Kelly, Ed G., Big Shack, Younger Shack....you need to be out there.  You need to mingle amongst those that care only about the slope and rating of the course.  You must see if you can fill there heads with thoughts of playing the ground game.  

I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures of Tommy posing next to the guy with the pimped out Taylor Made tour bag.....

I'm also looking forward to the BSG.com review of the driving range!!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 10:58:29 PM by Gracely »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2005, 02:42:07 AM »
As an aside, 296lbgolfer (David Ober) is one of SoCal's top amatuers.  My over/under on his score at Rustic is 67 or 68.  He isn't a typical BSGer, though.  He hits it normal distances, and uses hybrids for his 3, 4, 5 and maybe even 6 irons.  Quite a player, though....would be fun to watch him play there.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2005, 08:35:18 AM »
Grace,

That really is pretty funny.

How about we set up a GCAvs. BCG outing.  We could call it the Cival War ;D ;D ;D

Now that would be pure comedy.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2005, 08:44:00 AM »

How about we set up a GCAvs. BCG outing.  We could call it the Cival War ;D ;D ;D


The Apocalypse came to New Haven as The Match has been done between BSG and GCA, and my suggestion is don't bet too much. ;)

« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 08:45:11 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2005, 11:29:23 AM »

Geoffrey,

           Me thinks you took this thread a little too seriously.  I took it that Mr. Gracely has his tongue firmly planted in cheek.


NAF

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2005, 11:30:35 AM »
i think geoff was tongue in cheek too..

Brian_Gracely

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2005, 01:27:45 PM »
I'm not sure people realize how serious this is.  This is a group of people that use pre-shot routines.  They support the use of range-finders.  They use the cheater-line and don't even think it's cheating.  They probably even go to Yale and don't know that they are playing a Redan, Short, Road or Biarritz, let alone the history of the mowing patterns or bunkers depths.  They will go to Rustic Canyon and potentially hit a high-lofted wedge into #12.  Some of them might comment that the ultra-wide fairways make the course too easy.  I can almost bet that none of them know that Jim Wagner helped on the building of the course.

So this is not about just playing golf or how much fun they have.  Golf is about strategy and architecture and intellectual challenge.  Fun is just a byproduct!!  This is about where they will rank the course in their personal Top 20.  This is about whether they think the walk from #9 green to #10 tee is too long....if they even bother to walk.  This is about whether or not the design is bullet-proof, or just some good holes linked together with fillers.  And this is most definitely about whether or not they have played NGLA before...because that's what it's always about.    

Now back to saving the world, one byte at a time....

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2005, 01:42:48 PM »
Now that is seriously funny!          ;D

Geoffrey,

         I have never met Mr. Gracely so I don't know how 'serious' he is, but I took it that he was poking fun at how serious and intolerant some members of GCA can get.  I have met a lot of people from this board (and others) and its always nice to match the real person with the Internet persona.  If I'm lucky someday I will get to meet the both of you.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 01:47:14 PM by Craig Edgmand »

Jim Nugent

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2005, 02:06:00 PM »
I'm not sure people realize how serious this is.  This is a group of people that use pre-shot routines.  They support the use of range-finders.  They use the cheater-line and don't even think it's cheating.  They probably even go to Yale and don't know that they are playing a Redan, Short, Road or Biarritz, let alone the history of the mowing patterns or bunkers depths.  They will go to Rustic Canyon and potentially hit a high-lofted wedge into #12.  Some of them might comment that the ultra-wide fairways make the course too easy.  I can almost bet that none of them know that Jim Wagner helped on the building of the course.

So this is not about just playing golf or how much fun they have.  Golf is about strategy and architecture and intellectual challenge.  Fun is just a byproduct!!  This is about where they will rank the course in their personal Top 20.  This is about whether they think the walk from #9 green to #10 tee is too long....if they even bother to walk.  This is about whether or not the design is bullet-proof, or just some good holes linked together with fillers.  And this is most definitely about whether or not they have played NGLA before...because that's what it's always about.    

Now back to saving the world, one byte at a time....


Ha ha, you left out one minor detail.  These design-ignorant "yahoos" also shoot a bunch of 74's, 71's and 68's, while sending the ball into orbits the more refined types can only dream of.  And who says ignorance isn't bliss?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 02:18:22 PM by Jim Nugent »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2005, 02:21:54 PM »
... and most can play well enough to REALLY see what architecture is about.

So you are equating playing well and seeing what architecture is about?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

ForkaB

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2005, 02:34:20 PM »
Where is Barney, when we really need him..... :'(?

rgkeller

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2005, 02:43:15 PM »
... and most can play well enough to REALLY see what architecture is about.

So you are equating playing well and seeing what architecture is about?

Well, certainly the ability to play well gives that individual the opportunity to appreciate and recognize good architecture that a chopper will never have.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2005, 06:27:21 PM »

Geoffrey,

     If I though Mr. Gracely was serious, then I wouldn't think it was funny. I figured that since he reads BSG, that he is a member and therefore is poking fun at himself.

      Maybe I should check out this BSG and see what the fuss is all about.

 

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2005, 08:00:33 PM »
I was just pointing out that this flies in the face of the history of golf course architecture, where lots of hacks have built great courses, but relatively few pros have.  

David,

I agree. Ben Crenshaw and his two Green Jackets can stick it!



P.S. Do you think Ben makes more money spending his time in East Hampton, NY next to a trash dump or playing a corporate outing in Dallas?

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2005, 08:29:19 PM »

I stand by my statement.  I am surprised anyone on this site would seriously take issue with it.   What is the saying about those who dont learn from mistakes are bound to repeat them . . . ?

David,

Your statement is silly. Why would you expect a professional golfer to be a great architect? They make more money doing outings. How many Hall of Fame baseball player have built great baseball stadiums? How many arenas has Wilt Chamberlain built? Bobby Orr? Franz Klamer (to use a sporting event that has variability to it)?

This website is about architecture not marketing. Your a smart guy, Freddy Couples and John Daly are marketing props, which is old news.

Now go jump on Matt.  ;)

THuckaby2

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2005, 08:40:06 PM »
Geoffrey:

I posted something to this effect on BSG and I'll do the same here:  come on man, think about it.  Gracely is tweaking the GCA crowd and the Rustic regulars who worship at the altar of that course for taking it - and architecture - oh so seriously.  He's using what THIS GROUP would say about BSG (using their dogma) to make his point.  He's not tweaking BSG at all.

Of course he's gonna be pissed at me for now ruining his fun, but what the hell.   ;)

No one doubts that the BSG crowd is a great group of guys.  They're just into different things.  I believe they are FAR more in touch with reality than are most GCA regulars, but I'm also not sure if that matters much.

The two groups don't have to be mutally exclusive either, as you and Sweeney and several others have proven.

Here's the bottom line - if Moriarty and Kelly and Shackelford and Naccarato and whoever else from here played Rustic together with the BSG group, well there's no doubt a great time would be had by all.  They might talk about different things, but I'd have to guess the BSG guys would enjoy talking about the course, just as the regulars here would dig a day getting into equipment.

There are lots of things to love about golf.  Just because one focuses on one facet doesn't have to make him dislike all others.

 ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 08:41:11 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2005, 08:41:25 PM »
Bottom line -

Bombsquadgolf.com is mentioned far more frequently on this site than golfclubatlas.com is mentioned there.

Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

THuckaby2

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2005, 08:44:25 PM »
That's no surprise, Michael.  Just understand also that BSG is not exactly a regular topic here!   ;)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2005, 08:54:01 PM »
Dr. Geoffrey,
I think David has it right here in regards to Brian, and recently I had a small IM conversation with the Brian regarding opinions he made recently on another subject. I had not realized Brian had tired of this website and/or had issues with it. After all, many of us have prospered in friendship and commraderie alone, as well as found people who show the same interests in the game. Nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, I think that its great that a Bombsquad Golf exists to that portion of the masses.

I've had the pleasure to met Brian and I think he is a swell guy who I would gladly golf with anyday of the week. Although from the sounds of it, he might just not want to do that at Rustic Canyon. He certainly has problems with it and Geoff Shackelford, Rustic Canyon was never going to be a course that won high praise in two rounds with everyone. That's the beauty of GREAT golf architecture that creates conversation. In fact if he read Geoff Shackelford's book on the subject, Geoff mentions this as a good thing.

As far as Bomb Squad Golf, the much admired Harvey Pennick once said, "If you play golf, your my friend" and I think that's a pretty apt conclusion to this topic and thread.

At Rustic Canyon, we have developed all sorts of great friendships because of this wonderful course. I drive over an hour and ten minutes just to play 95% of my golf there, and frankly, it just isn't enough either!  

When I was at my worst mentally, physically and spritually less then a year ago, I would still go out there with the hopes and wishes and thoughts I could get more then just few holes in on that given day. It didn't mater how many, just that I could play more then I did the last time I was there. That probably saved my life simply because it was the only hope I had left at that time. It wasn't the perfect situation either, knowing I was nothing more of a casual observer then a participant--I was a mess because of it too. I can honestly say on many occasions that I likened myself to a parapelgic, paralyzed from the waist down. Yet, I had the David Moriarity's; the Lynn Shackelford's; the David Kelly's; the Andy Lipschultz's not caring one bit if I did hang around and flail away. Even the entire staff at Rustic Canyon.

Is that friendship or what?

So, as far as the Bombsquad guys wanting to play Rustic Canyon, well, If they want to play there, I'd fully encourage their vote to do so and tell them simply the same thing I tell anyone that's playing there that I don't seem to recognize from times before: "Enjoy the course it was built for specifically people who love the game of golf and want to be challenged on every aspect of the Game." It's not perfect, but that's whats perfect about it. and in closing, a little line from my recovery program that is allowing me to enjoy the Game, the ability just to walk from room to room, as well as enjoy my entire life again:

Progress Before Perfection...


Bill Shotzbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2005, 08:55:31 PM »
Great posts Tom. On both sites.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2005, 09:19:29 PM »
Boy we might need barney back, this place is becoming far too literal.

Mike,  You've confused me now.  I agree with you . . . except for the part where you said my statement was silly.   The pros to which I was referring-- before you guys injected Nicklaus and Crenshaw-- were generally pre-1920.


Maybe your not such a smart guy.  ;)

In 1919 there was little money in being a golf pro, the best players were Amateurs. It was more lucrative for Bobby Jones and his earlier colleagues to be part-time lawyers and players rather than full time players. Probably the only thing less lucrative than being a golf pro pre-1920 was being a professional architect (were there any?).

So I will argue that Jones, Travis, MacDonald were the equivalent of today's modern pro and I like their courses same as Crenshaw, Nicklaus and Faxon. (have not actually played Jones or Faxon yet!).

T_MacWood

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2005, 10:41:09 PM »
Quote from: DMoriarty link=board=1;threadid=20085;[img
http://home.earthlink.net/~neilregan/Sand%20Hills%202005/sand%20hills%202005%20050627%201_061%20%a92005%20shgc%2017th%20huntley%20v1%20FRAMED%20V4%20LEVEL%204.jpg[/img]


I'm struck by this photo, it appears that Sand Hills has lost a little of its wild and raw nature. The course has a manicured, stylized look it did not have a decade ago.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 10:42:42 PM by Tom MacWood »

Brian_Gracely

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2005, 12:50:32 AM »
And with that wonderful picture of my friend Bob Huntley playing golf at that outstanding golf course, I say thanks and it's been fun.  

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2005, 05:35:19 AM »
Bottom line -

Bombsquadgolf.com is mentioned far more frequently on this site than golfclubatlas.com is mentioned there.
Mr Moore,

The real bottom line is that Yale is mentioned on both forums and yet you still will not leave the State of Maine to play it!







 I am talking about the supposed dark ages, when golf course design was left to club professionals-- the only professionals of the time.  Guys like John, Tom, and Willie Dunn who were building geometric abominations.   The guys who MacDonald and MacKenzie discuss-- MacKenzie especially has much to say regarding whether professionals make good golf course architects.  


Carnoustie Golf Links (1867)
Crail(1892)
Ladybank (1879)
Machrinhanish (1879)
Moray - Course 1 (1889)
Muirfield (1891)
Perth (1864)
Prestwick (1851, 1883)
Royal Burgess Golfing Society of Edinburgh (1895)
Royal Dornoch (1887)
Saint Andrews - New Course (1894)
Tain (1890)
Lahinch Golf Club - Old Course (1893)
Rosapenna (1893)
Royal County Down (1891)

David,

Let's not worry about what others, such as Mac and Mac, think. I have not played any on these but a week playing Professional Old Tom Morriss' courses sounds pretty nice to me.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 06:10:48 AM by Mike Sweeney »

rgkeller

Re:The apocalypse is coming to Rustic Canyon!
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2005, 07:04:36 AM »
Well, certainly the ability to play well gives that individual the opportunity to appreciate and recognize good architecture that a chopper will never have.

I couldnt agree more-- the best way to understand architecture is to hit it long to the middle of the fairway, then hit a wedge to the green.  Spending hours upon hours at the range honing one's game really helps develop an eye for architecture as well.  Playing tournaments helps too-- what better way to take in a course than to focus deeply on your game and your game only for the entirely of a round.  

You've really hit the nail on the head-- This must be why the player professionals have always produced the world's best golf course architecture.  

The OPPORTUNITY.

Certainly a skilled player has the ability to experience and test all of the architect's layout strategy, the nuances of the green complexes and the hazards off the tee. The chopper cannot appreciate because he cannot hit the shots required to meet the challenge laid out by the architect, he can only imagine the challenge.

Touring Professionals have their own issues which may interfere with a scrupulous examination - such things as "fairness" would be one.

And if the criterion for the ability to appreciate good golf architecture is the ability to create it, then many more than do should zip up their lip.

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