Winter Greens: Poa Triv. Overseed vs. Painting

[Brent Hutto]

Last winter our club did an experiment. Eighteen greens were overseeded with the usual Poa Trivialis. The other nine greens were left dormant and painted with a mixture of green and black paint so they wouldn't look brown. Our greens are one of the hybrid Bermuda grasses (TifDwarf I believe) and the course is in Blythewood, SC.

As a golfer, I thought the experiment was a total success. There was no transition period in the fall and the only problem in the spring was the clumps of something that looked like Poa Annua and sprouted before the Bermuda came out of dormancy. So a couple of the really infested greens were pretty ugly for a couple of weeks in April. Contrary to my expectation, the painted greens weren't ballmarked to death by the end of February. There were two solid months in the fall and several weeks in the spring where by comparison the overseeded greens seemed almost unplayable. And even in the middle of winter I liked putting on the painted greens as well as the excellent winter Poa Triv. ones.

The management of the club considered this a one-time experiment that they'll never repeat. They thought the third nine looked ugly all winter, people complained that the dormant greens putted faster than the regular ones and yes, you could see ballmarks by the end of the winter (although in my opinion they affected putting not at all).

So here's my question. What are the conditions that favor the painting approach instead of overseeding with Poa Triv. I must admit that good firm Poa Triv. greens make a wonderful putting surface. It's just that giving up nearly four months (fall and spring) to get four months (winter) of nice, firm, green putting surfaces doesn't seem worth it.

My guess would be that with heavier play the advantage would be the growing Poa Triv. grass so that ballmarks will heal and so forth. I'd guess that firmer greens would have less tendency to lasting damage than squishy ones. And I suppose that the length of the fall and spring transitions in and out of Bermuda grass is a factor.

To put it simply, what kinds of courses in what locations are ideally suited to painting instead of overseeding in the winter?

Postscript: One other advantage is that without needing to heavily irrigate the dormant greens, the approaches can be kept firmer and faster.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Brent,
  This is an issue that we've looked at from EVERY angle possible in the last 8 months. In comparisons to many of the other high end courses here, Long Cove get almost twice as much play. We get around 32,000 rounds a year, where as the courses that paint (Belfair West, Berkeley Hall South and Colleton River-Nicklaus) get in the ball park of 12-18,000 total. Those courses also have very, very open site conditions for their greens. We have a very strict permitting process here that does not allow for us to cut down a tree over 6 inches in diameter without a permit, which may take months, up to a year.
  Also, being a Pete Dye desing, we have alot of greens that have only one walk on/walk off point because of all the mounding and because of all the mounding, much of the rain runs on the greens. Trust me, we'd love to paint greens-not have to worry about winter transition or spring transition, firm conditions because we wouldn't be trying to grow the triv, but I'm thankful for my job and it's the type of decision that can end up costing people their if things go bad. As a side note, we are going to let out small putting green go dormate to see how it holds up to the wear and tear.
  We will not be seeding fairways again this year and that proved to be a wonderful decision as our fairways were fantastic this year. Seeding next week Monday.......

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Brent Hutto]

Tony,

I didn't even think about fairways since my club will overseed the fairways until hell freezes over. But now that you mention it, dormant Bermuda grass is a wonderful fairway surface to play from.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Brent,
  It's a great surface...tight and fast. There is a course here that paints their fairways!!!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Bill_McBride]

Here in Pensacola on the Gulf Coast, where there is seldom a killer frost, we overseeded our greens with poa trivialis every fall for many years and paid for it dearly many springs.  One year we had a big rain right after putting out the seed; the next week we had thick green grass at the lowest point of each green, and the TifDwarf had a hard time competing in the spring.  Major transition problems were really the norm rather than the exception.

Last fall we left two greens out of the overseeding.  Each was the best green all winter and we had absolutely no transition problem with those greens.  Several of the overseeded greens have been problematic.

We painted those greens once and it washed off during a couple of our torrential downpours.  We didn't repaint, lived with the brownish look all winter, and had few complaints.  With the warm wet late winter and early spring we had this year, the bermuda greened up again pretty quickly.

We wouldn't overseed this fall but it won't make any difference.  Next Monday we start a major renovation project ($3.5 million budget) and will be building all new greens, tees, stripping and turning the fairways, enhancing drainage runoff, and installing a new irrigation system.  All bunkers will be rebuilt.  The idea is to retain the 20's look of Pensacola CC (first nine 1902, second nine 1925) with low profile bump up greens, Ross-like chipping areas and small greens.  We will add about 25,000 SF to the current 75,000 SF total for 18 greens, with the objective of decreasing wear on those small greens.

We'll have nine holes open through the end of December and the entire course closed through grow in next fall.  Jerry Pate Golf Design has done a great job for us so far and we are excited.  The new #16 will be a Redan, perhaps the second built on the Gulf Coast (C.C. of Mobile has one as a result of its renovation by Ron Forse several years ago).

[A_Clay_Man]

Could you correct me where I'm wrong?

 This entire issue is preicated on the fact that management wants green looking grass in the winter?

[Brent Hutto]

I can't speak generally but the (current but soon selling out) owners of our non-equity private club (University Club in Blythewood, SC) consider the #1 priority when it comes to budgeting to be a green, lush, landscaped and immaculate appearance for 365 days/year. Coming as close as possible to that ideal given the available resources is the primary thing on which the superintendent is judged. Previous owners had pretty much the same priority.

Of course they also want the playability of the course to be great, as well. In this they actually differ from the preceding ownership who I don't think really valued things like drainage and bunker maintenance at all. But from talking to the head pro and other management people I don't think they'd give up green and lush even if it meant leaving the course a little wetter and shaggier than ideal for the players.

Based on my conversations with other members, with guests I've brought to play and with other people who have seen the course I'd say that the owner's priorities pretty much reflect the perceptions that drive the success of the enterprise (as odd as that may seem among present company on this forum). People really go WOW when the course looks green and lush, especially given our hilly property and resulting spectacular viewing points from various vantages. IMO, there is a valid reason that Tom Fazio stays busy building pretty courses for resorts and CCFAD's with huge maintenance budgets.

Most players want interesting routing (meaning holes whose layout is notably different from what they're used to), greens that are perfect and preferably fast and beyond that it's pretty much sand in the bunkers, no casual water and no bare spots in the fairway. So as long as you keep the greens healthy it's hard to go wrong by most golfer's standards if you just keep it all green and wet.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adam,
I really believe your a little too anti-golf management to see the big picture. No one I know, I repeat NO ONE, who overseeds enjoys the experience or the expense. But, we have to give golfers what they demand or we are out of business. Would most courses in most cases be better off agronomically and playability wise if they didn't overseed? Damn right. But, the average foursome off the plane from Michigan didn't spend all that money to play on brown grass. And if you didn't overseed they are going to play on the course that did. If I was a member of a private club with limited play would I want the course overseeded? No way. Owner of a daily fee or resort in the sun belt, no choice.  

Brent,
I believe Tony explained it pretty well. But I do believe there is some middle ground. Poa triv is a pretty small seed and the greens really don't have to be ripped up to get it down in the canopy. The other thing is, it can be mowed at fairly low heights right off the get go. And, if your looking for color, the absurdly high seeding rates that are used during overseed can be reduced which will result in a better spring transition. (there is some debate here as some believe a high seeding rate results in less mature plants which die easier when the heat returns. I overseeded for over 10 years and my test plots with lower seeding rates ALWAYS transitioned better.)

I do believe that a light overseed with poa triv and maybe some red top will result in a very nice putting surface without great disruption in the fall or spring. If courses were just a little more patient in the fall and let the transition take a little longer the disruption in play would be minimal.

[Tim Taylor]

This is so very true Don.  I was at Pinehurst in mid-April. Because of the upcoming US Open, #2 was not overseeded. We played #2 twice. Both times the groups we were paired with complained that #2 was in terrible shape compared to the other courses. I thought the dormant bermuda fairways played just fine. When I pointed this out to the other guys, they agreed that it played just fine but they wanted it to be green DAMN IT!

The greens were plenty green, but I'm guessing they're all bent by now anyways.

TimT

But, we have to give golfers what they demand or we are out of business. Would most courses in most cases be better off agronomically and playability wise if they didn't overseed? Damn right. But, the average foursome off the plane from Michigan didn't spend all that money to play on brown grass. And if you didn't overseed they are going to play on the course that did. If I was a member of a private club with limited play would I want the course overseeded? No way. Owner of a daily fee or resort in the sun belt, no choice.  

Brent,
I believe Tony explained it pretty well. But I do believe there is some middle ground. Poa triv is a pretty small seed and the greens really don't have to be ripped up to get it down in the canopy. The other thing is, it can be mowed at fairly low heights right off the get go. And, if your looking for color, the absurdly high seeding rates that are used during overseed can be reduced which will result in a better spring transition. (there is some debate here as some believe a high seeding rate results in less mature plants which die easier when the heat returns. I overseeded for over 10 years and my test plots with lower seeding rates ALWAYS transitioned better.)

I do believe that a light overseed with poa triv and maybe some red top will result in a very nice putting surface without great disruption in the fall or spring. If courses were just a little more patient in the fall and let the transition take a little longer the disruption in play would be minimal.

[ChasLawler]

Tony,

I didn't even think about fairways since my club will overseed the fairways until hell freezes over. But now that you mention it, dormant Bermuda grass is a wonderful fairway surface to play from.

It's a nice smooth surface, but dormant bermuda can take a long time to dry out if surface drainage conditions are not optimal. My course in Virginia doesn't overseed its TifSport fairways, and the course can play very slow during a moderately wet spring - even worse if we had any snow over the winter.

Overall I think not overseeding is the right decision as the conditions are excellent mid-spring to early winter, but the stretch from December through March is usually best described as soft and soggy.

[peter_p]

Adam,
Perhaps green paint should be added to TE Paul's ideal maintenance meld for fairways.