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Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2005, 09:16:41 AM »
At the 1995 US Amateur at Newport Johnny Miller referred to Buddy Marucci a couple of times as a successfuly owner of a few Mercedes dealerships which he was then and is now. He did not refer to him as a 'used car salesman'.

Tom Paul -

We have discussed this before, so I know that you remember the semi-finalist from Maine, Mark Plummer, who has won the state am here 13 times.

Well, he was a salesman, and after he lost to Tiger NBC was like, "Mark, I understand that you are a salesman" and without blinking an eye Mark says in his Down East way "Yup - liquah, real estate . . . whatevah's movin' "

Classic.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2005, 10:05:20 AM »
Gents,

Mike McCoy defended his title from last year in impressive fashion.  He won 6&5 over Michael Kelly.  I played with McCoy in the first round of qualifying, he shot even par 70 in very inclement weather with a great display of ball striking and solid putting.  

I had an absolutely disastrous first round in qualifying, which led me to battle it out in the 4th Flight over the weekend.  No matter the flight, it was still great fun to be able to compete at such a great course.  I was able to regroup after that first day, and went on to eventually win the 4th flight.

The biggest WINNER of the entire week was Golf Course Supt. Rick Christian and his staff.  Pine Valley was not immune from the terrible weather and tough conditions that many courses in this area suffered from.  The turnaround that he and his staff oversaw was nothing short of miraculous.  The entire golf course, and especially the greens were in perfect condition.  If you didn't know what the conditions were a month ago, you would have never guessed that there were any previous problems.  My home course was struck with the many of the same problems as Pine Valley.  Knowing first hand what they faced there, I was amazed at what the staff at Pine Valley was able to accomplish in such a short time.

Dan,

The fairways at Pine Valley are mostly Bent Grass with some Poa as well.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 04:48:18 PM by JSlonis »

wsmorrison

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2005, 10:15:47 AM »
Jamie,

I was out with Mike Cirba and my oldest son David.  We followed you a little bit from afar.  We stood on 17 green and watched you hit first on 11 so we hoped you had a lead.  Congratulations on winning the flight.  I spent most of the day looking at holes 2,12-15, 17 and 18 searching for Flynn's work there.  It was a beautiful day and, as you say the course looked fine considering the miserable season it has been for maintaining and growing turf.

I know the course was closed for about 10 days (it usually closes for a week or so in August) and Rick did a fantastic job getting A-4 to fill in the spots.  So many courses in the area continue to suffer its good to see some come back.  Matt Shaffer did a great job earlier in the season at Merion for the Amateur and Scott Anderson and Mike McNulty keep things going great at Huntingdon Valley and Phila Country respectively.

I was wondering, Jamie, how slow did the greens at Pine Valley seem to you compared to typical Crump Cup conditions?  They looked a bit slow but considering the remediation it was certainly understandable.  

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2005, 10:36:03 AM »
Wayne,

The green speeds were a bit slower than usual, but not by much.  They had a good quick pace where you still had to pay attention to what you were doing.

wsmorrison

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2005, 10:49:18 AM »
Thanks, Jamie.  Any updates on the work at Tavistock?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2005, 11:03:57 AM »
Tom Paul:  great stories!  I've seen two people hit a shot that went between their legs, but never about one in the old gonads :o

speaking of Ky Lafoon, do you have any about his legendary temper?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2005, 11:07:01 AM »
Thanks, Jamie.  Any updates on the work at Tavistock?

Wayne,

Right now the Irrigation company is in the process of installing our new system.  They are making great strides, and are ahead of schedule so far.  There is nothing really new other than that.  This winter, our "tree management" ;) plan will continue, and we will keep things going until the course closes Aug 1, 2006.  

wsmorrison

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2005, 11:29:34 AM »
Jamie,

I hope our tree management program is in high gear this winter as well.  Weren't the two chainsaws at Oakmont named "Lightning" and "Wind" for explanatory purposes?  We should do the same.  

Perhaps later this month you'll consider a return to Rolling Green for a social game rather than competition.  I'd look forward to chat with you about things.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2005, 11:34:36 AM »
Jamie,
My wife and I were following your match yesterday.  

I couldn't belive the time when the referee from the other match mentioned about being 3 up right as you were going to start your swing.

You guys were great golfers and showed great sportsmanship.

Thanks for making the day great!

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2005, 12:06:59 PM »
Jamie,
My wife and I were following your match yesterday.  

I couldn't belive the time when the referee from the other match mentioned about being 3 up right as you were going to start your swing.

You guys were great golfers and showed great sportsmanship.

Thanks for making the day great!

Dan,

Thanks for the kind words.  You should of introduced yourselves. :)  The voice you heard anouncing the other match was Gordon Brewer, the Pres. of Pine Valley.  The timing of that was just perfect.

Was that you and your wife that I saw on #18 while I was on the cart going to the clubhouse?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2005, 01:14:18 PM »
On 18? Quite possibly..

In a match like that, I prefer to leave the competitors alone.  You sure don't need you train of concentration messed up by a GCA discussion :)

Actually, after you teed off on 14, we walked thru the woods to the 15th fairway, but you finished the match and we missed you.  It's good to see great play, and thanks again for the chance to watch a match of such high caliber up close.  

If you're ever interested in playing Gil's French Creek (that goes for anybody, by the way), just let me know.   FC is no Pine Valley (what is?), but it is a lot of fun.    Actually, I've heard that Gil wanted to recreate HHH on our 6th hole, but found that it would be too difficult on a long, uphill par 5.  The existing bunker is about 40 yards long, but doesn't cross the entire fairway.

Back to Pine Valley.  What do y'all think about the new tees?  I went back to the new tee on 18, and I think it's an incredibly terrifying shot.    What's the cary from back there? 280?  

Oh yeah - and is there any better smelling course than PV?  It's like golf perfume out there!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 01:15:14 PM by Dan Herrmann »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2005, 02:03:32 PM »
Redanman -
I would be careful, given how careless you've been with the FACTS.
The SLK tops out ~$65K, a far cry from the $400K you posit.

Now if we were to talk about the SLR MacLaren....  :D

And I'll ask you this once again, what does "Redanman (for Q)" mean ? ? ?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2005, 02:54:52 PM »
This my first chance to play the new tees, and I am in favour of all of them except number14.
On that particular hole, pushing the tee back appears to have taken some of the esthetic value away from the hole..you dont see as much of the hole somehow..certainly made the hole harder though.

The remainder of the new tees are superb, very well placed and angled, they all play as though they have been there forever.

There were some comments about the routing of traffic from the new 15 tee, but that is a small price to pay for the great new angle the tee presents.

I dont think the carry on 18 is as bad as 280, I think it is more like 250...but somewhat intimidating into a breeze :o

The course was in magnificent shape, especially considering the rough summer weather...as usual the place was a treat to be..I am very lucky indeed.

JohnV

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2005, 02:55:44 PM »

Maybach 57 $325 k
Maybach 62 $375 k
(The model is how long the car is in metres) ::)

62 metres?  That is a pretty big car, most luxury yachts are smaller than that.  ;)

peter_p

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2005, 03:01:44 PM »
John,
must be decimeters.

BTW- I'm in at Phoenix

TE,
If you had been playing a match, I'm sure Buddy would have moved the car for you. Could you have turned on the windshield wipers, especially if it was raining. Does the shot work better with cleats or softspikes if you climbed onto the hood?

Awaiting post 20,000.

wsmorrison

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2005, 04:48:00 PM »
MWP,

The look of the new back tee on 14  popping up with such linearity and modern appearance is odd.  The middle tee and back tee could be lowered significantly (3 to 4 feet for the middle tee and much more for the back tee) and still be able to see most of the pond fronting the green.

I was surprised how much of the 16th green you can see from the new back tee.  It made me look more carefully at the old back tee and you can see the right front corner of the green--I never noticed it before the clue from the new back tee.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2005, 06:56:32 PM »
MWP,

How would you categorize the views, aesthetically and architecturally, from the old tee at # 18 to the view from the new tee on # 18 ?

Do you think Crump would be pleased ?

Don't you feel that the new tee on # 14 create a sameness to the other par 3's, # 3, # 5 and # 14 ?

TEPaul,

The more I think about it, the more I think # 18 green needs to return Crump's bump, a ridge or substantive contouring to achieve his goals.

The green lacks challenge and character without the feature he originally incorporated into the design and construction of the 18th green

TEPaul

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2005, 07:19:46 PM »
redanman;

Regarding the mention of Marucci's $237,000 Mercedes----do you know what joke means? J-O-K-E?? Maybe you would've figured it out a bit better if I'd said $937,000.   ;)

TEPaul

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2005, 07:33:59 PM »
MWP:

You wouldn't hear any negative comments from me if PV decided to do what Crump intended to do on the 18th green. The old "Pimple" on the 18th was pretty contoversial, though, and that's from those who seem to remember it. John A. Brown did very little to change PV----the removal of that "pimple" on #18 was probably one of the more notable change he ever made. J.A. Brown wrote the first history book of Pine Valley and obviously he came across the same material from Carr and Smith I did that Crump had every intention of removing that "pimple" himself. According to his two best friends he viewed it as a temporary feature.

There were a number of other changes the record explains Crump intended to do there had he lived. A few of them I wish the club would do. There're even a few things that were actually approved by the 1921 Advisory Committee and never were done. I guess they forgot about them somehow.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 07:35:17 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2005, 07:39:03 PM »
TEPaul,

Hey, it's me, not MWP.

I believe Crump left the pimple intact and wrote about replacing it with a contoured ridge running through the green.

The green is void of character without the pimple feature or contoured ridge.

The question is, why hasn't it been restored or reintroduced as a ridge as Crump indicated.

My gut reaction is because so few people even know about it, and who removed it, and what Crump wanted in its place.

Something needs to be done, whether it's a pimple or a ridge, the green needs interesting contouring to heighten the challenge on the approach, recovery and putt.

TEPaul

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2005, 09:00:41 PM »
"I believe Crump left the pimple intact and wrote about replacing it with a contoured ridge running through the green."

Pat:

George Crump really didn't write much of anything about Pine Valley. He was interviewed some but the record of his thoughts about Pine Valley and the details of what he wanted to do and planned to do pretty much comes from his two closest friends there, Father Simon Carr and William Poultney Smith, two excellent players. I call those hole by hole accounts by those two men of what Crump wanted to do, "the remembrances". I believe the 1921 Advisory Committee asked them to write those "remembrances" so they'd have a better idea how to finish the course the way Crump wanted it after he died. Both of them said why Crump put that "pimple" on #18, what he was trying to accomplish  with it and that he considered it to be temporary until he could work out a better feature (they both mentioned he was thinking of a slight ridge running from the "pimple's" position to the right edge of the green). There was a lot of features on that course that Crump considered temporary until he could go back and fix them. Some of those features he may've considered temporary still remains and some of them were removed by Alison and the 1921 Advisory Committee. Things like a form of Mid-Surrey mounding near the first green and around the rear of the third green. Crump wanted to change the 6th green and its position, the seventh hole, the 9th, the 11th and the 16th. A few other of his original greens were too radical and were changed early on such as greens #6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 17, and of course the "pimple" on #18.

"The question is, why hasn't it been restored or reintroduced as a ridge as Crump indicated."

That's a good question. I'm not sure how aware the club has ever been of some of the foregoing and those details.

"My gut reaction is because so few people even know about it, and who removed it, and what Crump wanted in its place."

Pretty much everyone who knows the architecture of PVGC knows John Arthur Brown removed that "Pimple". They know why too----eg like some of the other early stuff that was changed early on was just very controversial---considered far too radical. There's no question at all that's the way that "pimple" on #18 green was looked at.

"Something needs to be done, whether it's a pimple or a ridge, the green needs interesting contouring to heighten the challenge on the approach, recovery and putt."

I wouldn't disagree with that particularly given Crump's specific thoughts on the subject are very much there in the archives in enough detail.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 09:08:07 PM by TEPaul »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2005, 10:54:42 PM »
I played PV a few times last week, including the Wed. practice round of The Crump. Saw a lot of old friends and loved it. Thought the course was fabulous. (Fast, closely cropped, and firm.) Arguably has the best set of par 3's and short par 4's in the world. One problem though! How has the course become known for it's "tree framing", while the 1925 aerials in the clubhouse reveal it's original open state. Today, trees appear to have completely taken over. I found literally hundreds of bunkers infested with vegetation 10-20 yards deep in the woods. (see below) Why not peel back the edges and re-expose these beauties? Seems to me that the course would improve drastically with some tree management. Any thoughts?



TEPaul

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2005, 11:46:36 PM »
Dunlop:

The ideal solution for PVGC of simply removing all the trees from the original bunkers at PVGC and all the trees from the shot angles of the bunkers of PVGC has been mentioned on here for a long time now, mostly by me.

Others just look at some of those early aerials of PVGC and call for the return to the look of the course in those earlier times. The people on here who do that are totally missing a couple of very important points.

Firstly, that most of the trees one sees in those early aerials were very small back then and today they are about 85-90 years older and a whole lot larger than in those early aerials. That fact alone gives the course in those early aerials and on ground photos so much more of an open look than it could ever have now unless the club decided to remove all the trees on the entire site and start again by planting trees that were as small as all the trees were on the site in the late teens and early 1920s.

And secondly, if one really knows why some of that land was cleared of trees they would understand better why the course looked so open in many areas back then. That reason is Crump was a shot tester and he simply cleared trees out of areas that he thought about using for routing and hole locations and never did. I could go through every hole with you and explain where those areas were that he cleared of trees and then never used for holes or parts of them. But the fact is those areas are still very visible on the early aerials and on-ground photos.

Those two reasons are why PVGC looked so much more open back then than it could today even if they removed all the trees from all Crump's original bunkers and shot angles out of those original bunkers. In my mind the latter would be the ideal tree solution for PVGC and I've said that on here many times.

Of course Pat Mucci will probably come on here and make some recommendation that the course should be returned to the look of those early aerials tree-wise completely ignoring the realities of what I just said.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 11:51:31 PM by TEPaul »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2005, 08:15:26 AM »
Tom, I agree....why wouldn't they simply peel back the edges free of overgrown trees and vegetation and re-expose golfers to these long lost bunkers? How magnificent would this be?Because the site is so large, PV could still maintain their hole-by-hole framework, which they are so proud of.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 10:06:25 AM by Dunlop_White »

Mike_Cirba

Re:FYI: Crump Cup @ Pine Valley - final matches Sun, Oct 2
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2005, 08:22:58 AM »
Note to Pine Valley (Places to remove trees);

(not that they'd listen to me!)  ;D

1) Take down a few on the right hand corner tempting the better player to favor that side.

2) A lot has been done...do more.

3) Pull back the trees near the green, exposing more of the sand.

7) Trim back the right side.

8) General clearing on both sides.

9) Clear the right.

12) Take out EVERY SINGLE tree on the left all the way to the ridgeline and you'll restore a once great hole.  It has become one-dimensional and the new tee is awful, taking away any idea of trying to gamble with a shot to the left.

13) Take out virtually EVERY tree down the left side short of the green and let players once again see the awesome bunkering short left.  Right now, it's like putting a burka on Jennifer Aniston.

14) Clear the left side of the green out to the 15th tee.

15) Further clearing is needed on the left hand bank up near the green, exposing that area to playability for the guy who wants to use that slope and risk the bunkers.  Take out those awful evergreens planted short right of the green.

17) Restore the right side fairway.

I'd also concur with Wayne about the new tee on 14...ugh.  The one on 18 creates an entirely different angle, but might be necessary, and the one on 12 should be dynamited.