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Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sandwich or Deal?
« on: October 02, 2005, 10:32:51 PM »
It is very possible to be partial to either course.  They both differ quite a bit while lying on similar dunes within a mile of each other.  

NAF

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2005, 07:39:59 AM »
Robert-- Again congrats on your tidy 76 at Deal from the TIPS...

The only advantages to me for St. Georges over Cinque Ports is 1) The routing and 2) the dunescape/isolation.. As per the greens, demands on tee shots, quirkiness and overall challenge... I'll take Deal 7 out of 10 times..

In fact to many of the locals, Deal would be the better Open Venue to stage a championship but I think one day a Walker Cup could go there or a Ladies Open..

I was recently talking with my architect compadre RT about all the places we've seen/been to in the UK (I think I've seen 60 out of the Golf World Top 100 GBI and how many I'd rather play than Deal. The answer both of us came up with was 3-4 courses.. I think it is that good..

But I am a homer..

RT

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2005, 07:48:47 AM »
Robert, a big difference is there is not a sage wisdom guy named Neville after the ninth at RSG's.  At RCP's, you'll find him.  Plus an ultra-friendly pro-shop staff led by Andrew Reynolds and crew.

NAF

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2005, 09:00:56 AM »
Ah Deal!




ForkaB

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2005, 09:09:45 AM »
Both are superb, but I'd give the edge to Sandwich.  Deal has more "WOW" holes, but Sandwich is more consistently good and has a more imaginative routing, IMHO.

NAF

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2005, 09:49:17 AM »
Sean, I can see how you'd say that after the conditions we played Deal in but I think the opinion is incorrect.  I've had the chance to play both courses multiple times and feel I can say the following..

The routing at St. Georges is a cooler routing but it is on an enormous tract of property and the dunes around the front 9 are grand and wonderful.  But around the Suez hole, the land changes and becomes more like what we find at Deal (around 11 and 12).. In fact, other than the 15th I don't find the end to Sandwich to be inspired golf.  My opinion.

I don't know how anyone can consider the final 7 holes at Deal a slog (well perhaps given the 35mph winds we faced that day you played with me).. You have inspired golf pretty much the whole way.  The 15th has some of the biggest dunes on the property and one of the most wonderful links shots in golf (the 2nd shot which Ran told me is an All World Approach).. The randomness of the land and where your drive lands makes for a tremendous second shot.

The 16th was Sir Peter Allen's favorite links golf hole.  Everyone in the history of 20th century UK links golf has praised it and loved it-- including Darwin and Fowler.  Again, the landscape is amazing here, the valley of inglorious security, the contours of the green, the chance to have an eagle putt--all terrific.

The 17th is a great short par 4 with Vardon's parlour being a stategic place to land your ball especially if you want to see the flag.  The punchbowl green is one of the best greens I've seen in GB and I and a great equalizer in match play.

Both 14 and 18 have wonderful lowprofile, elevated green sites.

Deal's routing is very much like St. Andrews and does anyone consider 12-18 there a slog.. I think not.  If Deal finished in town like TOC, we wouldnt be having this discussion..  Into the wind the finish at Deal is a cruel taskmaster but still incredibly fun to play.. How about when it is January Sean and all of those holes play downwind, is it a SLOG then too?

Oh yeah and that Peter Allen bloke, he picked Deal for his last round of golf on this earth.. Not bad considering he had been everywhere!

Sandwich is a great course and has the reputation due to its lofty status as an Open Venue and is really an exclusive London Club on the Kent Coast, but the locals who play Deal, Sandwich, Rye and Princes all think Deal is the best test and prefer to play there.

Now if you want to argue Deal vs. Rye, we can have some fun.


« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 09:53:57 AM by NAF »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2005, 10:10:39 AM »
Sandwich is a much harder golf course. It may be the hardest driving course I've ever played. Especially the front nine. You aren't going to post a respectable score on those holes from the rough.

Deal is a trip. Except for the first and a couple of holes at the beginning of the back nine, Deal is interesting and fun. A delight.

I came off the 18th (twice) at Sandwich ticked off and wanting to take on the monster again. I came off the 18th (once) at Deal with a smile on my face and hoping I would get back soon. Two different psychological universes and golfing experiences.

If given the choice, I would divide future rounds equally between them.

Are there two better courses in the UK so close together? What must it have been like when Princes' was ranked higher than either Sandwich or Deal pre-WWII? Three world class courses within a three mile stretch? Wow.

Bob

NAF

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2005, 10:58:17 AM »
Sean-

That doesnt make 2-7 at Deal as hard as you think.. I've played it a few times into the winter wind.

Play #3 from the par 5 tees, still reachable. I eagled it with that wind if you can believe it (3 wood approach) with Jeff Silverman as witness.

makes stopping a shot onto #4 much easier because it dies on there..

#5 is then a full three shotter and #6 still a short par 4..

what makes it harder is the back isnt set up to land shots downwind!

I'm not so sure the front at Deal is that inferior to Sandwich.. 1-3 aren't in my opinion. 4-8 obviously is where Sandwich has its teeth but it isnt a knockdown because #3,4,6 are awesome holes at Deal.

BTW- Deal plays 2.5 shots harder than Sandwich.. That is what I've been told by many people at Deal including the pro Andrew Reynolds who has played both countless times.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 10:59:00 AM by NAF »

NAF

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2005, 11:51:45 AM »
Pennard? no way.. Enodoc maybe..or maybe Enodoc vs. Pennard..

NAF

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2005, 12:15:54 PM »
Enodoc is soft from 13-15 no doubt.. 11 and 12 are fine and cool to play around the church..

But something about St. Enodoc and Sir John Betjeman just appeals a bit more to me than Pennard.. Can't put my finger on it..

I CANNOT stand the flattened area on #17 fairway at Pennard.. So hard to hold that fairway though..Is a problem in the summer..

henrye

Re:Sandwich or Deal?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2005, 12:25:56 PM »

BTW- Deal plays 2.5 shots harder than Sandwich.. That is what I've been told by many people at Deal including the pro Andrew Reynolds who has played both countless times.


This surprises me.  I have only played both courses from the Medal tees.  The SSS for RSG is 72 and for Deal is 71.  How can Deal be 2.5 harder?  Again from the Medal, RSG is a 6607 par 70.  Deal is 6482 par 71.

Lastly, ditto everything that Bob Crosby says about the 2 courses.

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