Mystic Rock

[TEPaul]

The Tour is at Mystic Rock this week. I've never been there but I will be there in a few weeks when we hold our Fall Meeting of the PA Golf Association at Nemacolin.

But one can get a pretty good idea of the course on TV. To me it's got that usual Pete Dye look of super shaping with penal features demarked with close rocks and close wild angles, severe vertical dimensions to them and such. Pete Dye's style surely is in a dimension all its very own (other than perhaps Hurzdan and Fry which does generally look a bit softer than Pete).

The green grades seem interesting with reportedly very little front to back tilt to the backs of any of them, and it appears there're all kinds of interesting little contours within them.

The shot values seems unbelievably high too which would probably explain why there's some unusual scoring separation this week in even the PGA Tour pro field.

The course looks about as demanding as a course can get and as usual it has that typical Dye almost "Theme Park" look to it.

I see a lot of similarity in the styles of Pete Dye and Hurzdan and Fry courses. Both generally have all kinds of interesting and distinct optional strategies using lots of great angles and such but the look of their styles!!----OH MY----it doesn't get much more artificial looking in not all ways but a lot of ways!

[TEPaul]

Who sees some real similarity in the styles of C.B Macdonald and Pete Dye?

I do. Almost always courses that have excellent and interesting distinct strategic ramifications but are unusually engineered looking. I wonder why C.B. removed those sleepers at the front of the great little "Short" at NGLA. If he hadn't that hole today would look a whole lot like one of Pete Dye's.

[Jerry Kluger]

There is little question that Pete Dye has developed a very distinctive style and if you look at Nemacolin and Bulle Rock, it is obivous that they are the product of the same architect.  
What I am looking forward to is a trip to see the Dye Preserve down in Jupiter, Florida.  It was originally built about 20 years ago and was a really good course but in some respects was a bit over the top with the mounding and it was called Cypress Links.  About two years ago the owners had him go over the course and change whatever he felt was necessary to make it a better course.  I wonder what he changed as  it is unusual for a designer to have the opportunity after 20 years to have a free hand to chage his original design.  

[TEPaul]

Jerry:

The changes Pete made to Cypress Links was adding 1,000 yards to the golf course all the while blaming every single yard on the USGA!  

[cary lichtenstein]

Jerry:


Pete Dye did an excellent job and turned a tricked up course into an enjoyable shotmakers course.

Cary

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:  The look of Pete Dye's courses was influenced by early exposure to three architects' work:  his father, Bill Langford, and Seth Raynor.

Pete's dad built the 9-hole course in Urbana where Pete learned the game.  A hilly farm property with several sidehill holes, small greens and steep banks to tie them back to grade.

Alice Dye's family had a summer place in Culver, Indiana, just down the street from Langford's Maxinkuckee GC ... a flatter property with elevated greens and steep banks down to the bunkers.

When I worked for Pete he spoke fondly of both Camargo and Fishers Island, both Seth Raynor designs.

I don't think it is a coincidence that Pete's own designs look a lot like those examples.

Interestingly, P.B. Dye was unaware of these similarities until he came up to Long Island in 1985 to consult at Piping Rock.  I took him out to National Golf Links and almost right away he said, "This looks like my dad's work."

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,
  I was playing golf with Jim Yonce of Yeaman's Hall at Long Cove-It was his first time playing there and he commented several times how Pete Dye is the modern day Raynor.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[gboring]

TEPaul,

If you are headed to Mystic Rock you have to make the trip 50 minutes south to Bridgeport, WV and the Pete Dye Golf Club.  Well worth the trip, and a true test of golf.

Greg Boring

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Honestly, would you say there is a Seth Raynor style of architecture or would it more accruately be C.B. Macdonald's unique style? If not, what's the difference really?  

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom Paul,
I found your comment comparing Dye to Hurdzan/Fry very interesting.  Their Wren Dale in Hershey, PA sure looks similar to Mystic Rock.

But is that a bad thing?  

Granted, I've never been to MR, so I could be way off base...

[George Pazin]

I, too, found the comparison to Hurdzan/Fry interesting. In fact, as I was driving home from a day spent at the tourney yesterday, I was struck by the feeling that Mystic Rock reminded me, in feel, of Olde Stonewall. Neither is particularly compelling to me, neither make very interesting use of the terrain, save a few holes on each, but each is somewhat saved by very interesting greens and green complexes. (I say somewhat, because for the exhorbitant sums charged by each of these courses, in my book it takes more than interesting greens to be completely saved.)

#1 has grown on me as an opener, #s 2-7 are rather boring to me, 8-15 is an interesting stretch, except for the "signature" 12th (am I crazy, or did they add that water intrusion separating the green into 2 distinct parcels?), and 16-18 do next to nothing for me. All for the grand bargain of $175 - a discounted rate since I stayed at the expensive yet enjoyable resort - and that was pre-84 Classic, I'm sure they've raised the rates since then. Not a course I'll be returning to play anytime soon.

BTW, Pampling flat out kills the ball for a relatively small guy. I watched the last half dozen groups, plus a few others, and he had the longest drive I saw on several holes. It's always amazing to see not just how far these guys hit it, but their touch around the greens as well. I don't know if anyone saw yesterday's telecast, but I was standing right next to Appleby when he hit out of the left rough on 13. And I was standing next to Justin Leonard's wife on a few holes, too - what a cutie.

[Matt Kardash]

Having never been to MR and having only seen it on tv the past few years, i must say the course seems to be getting better.

I dunno, everyone seems to get such a hard-on for the "natural" minimalist bunkering. But i got to say, Pete Dye makes the coolest looking pot bunkers. I love how he builds the faces of the banks up above the surrounding area.

[Matt Kardash]

george,
the green at 12 didn't get separated. The green is only the left half now. the right half is gone. the green is tiny now. it seems like a better hole than before. It made for interesting tv viewing, that's for sure.

[George Pazin]

Matt -

I do like the pot bunkers - that's how I want them to look and play in my fantasy hole I'm posting tomorrow - it's more the general layout of the routing that I find, well, not particularly inspiring. My $18 muni uses the land better in many places. I expect more from a course that is super expensive and built by Pete Dye.

In Pete's defense - not that he needs any from me - everything I've read about MR is that Mr. Hardy wanted the toughest course in western PA. It might play tougher than Oakmont (though I doubt it - probably just for high handicappers that struggle with water and rocks, more lost balls, that's for sure), but it doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence. Maybe I'll edit this later to fix that!

BTW, I think the right side of 12 is still used for non-tournament play. TV really doesn't do justice to the area left of the green - it is really sloped and very deep.

And 14 is the longest 384 yard hole from the tees I played that I've ever seen. If the yardage book is correct, wow, the modestly uphill nature of the fairway must really influence play.

At least the resort is really nice - enjoy the restaurants, Tom P!

[JohnV]

george,
the green at 12 didn't get separated. The green is only the left half now. the right half is gone. the green is tiny now. it seems like a better hole than before. It made for interesting tv viewing, that's for sure.

Matt, the right have which was the front of the green still exists and is used to cut down the wear on the left green.  Both times I've been there this year it was being used as they were saving the newer green for the tournament.

There is one major difference between Raynor/Macdonald and Dye.  You can usually play R/M's courses with one ball and I doubt many people below tour level can do that at a typical Dye course.

[George Pazin]

I hope I get to play MR with you someday, Bill, I'd love to hear your thoughts.