[Matt_Ward]

I have just finished playing the new Bandon Trails by the talented duo of C&C and while I don't have sufficient time as I''m traveling now between stops I just wanted to post this regarding the 14th hole there.

IMHO -- the 14th hole is one of the finest short par-4's you can play anywhere.

As good as the photos -- I saw them before going -- the magnitude of what the hole provides can only be fully understood when you actually play it. The tee is a full 40-50 feet above the fairway and the green looks like a tiny sliver in the nearby distance.

The best part is the "sucker" fairway area that C&C provide to the immediate right of the target for those inclined to seek the bail-out area.

In simple terms -- the bailout area is for suckers. As soon as miss on that side the pitch shot is essentially a blind one to a green that offers the landing area a bit bigger than the size of a closet. The green also falls off in a number of areas and the slightest amount of ball movement can mean your little pellet going further and further away from the target. I would love to see the likes of Seve in his prime handle the pitch shot when played from the lower right portion -- it has to be played with a jeweler's touch.

I happened to hit a superb drive that actually landed in the front half of the green and then rolled off the back edge -- going too long doesn't pay either. The preferred angled is down the left side with a slight fade if you decide for the green. There is debris to the left of the fairway but you will have a much better time from that side of the hole instead of the sucker play to the right. Frankly, playing to the left with an iron or fairway metal will not hurt you in playing the hole.

The green is simply one of the finest I have played. It is big enough to handle shots but it's VERY finicky on accepting anything that isn't well played.

When people talk about great short par-4's -- e.g, the 8th at PV, the 9th at Cypress and the 10th at Riviera -- I don't think it's a stretch to include the likes of the Trails 14th hole. It is a hole that can provide the ultimate reward or penalty and you will be begging to try it again and again. To me -- that's greatness in big time letters.

My further comments on Bandon Trails will be posted by this weekend.

[Joel_Stewart]

For every buyer there is a seller.  Personally I didn't like the hole but will give C&C credit for building it.

The hole changes the entire feel of the course, it looks completely different from all the other holes and plays different.  The green is also one of the most severe.  

The problem is there was no other alternate way to get over the ridge to the finishing holes.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I don't like it yet -- and I've played it more times than you have!  

[Paul_Turner]

Matt

After a single play, I loved the hole too and didn't think it was out of place at all (particularly not after the 13th which is more spectacular than the previous few).  

I would want to play it a few more times though because I wasn't sure if the green was just a bit too "finicky"; are some angles almost impossible? (Although is there anything wrong with pitching to a safer area, chipping and holing for a par?)  

I think it's an even more difficult approach than the 16th at Pacific Dunes.  

[Mike Hendren]

Matt,

Congratulations on hitting a superb drive.

Mike

[Pete Buczkowski]

Matt and others,

Can you address the wind and how it affects the play of the hole at various speeds and directions?

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

I haven't played Bandon Trails yet, but I happened to talk with two friends last night who have and they both hated the hole, I guess because they're "suckers" who ended up in the "bailout" area.  Is there an alternative play for the non-suckers (besides driving the green?).

They also thought Trails was the easiest of the three Bandon courses.

[Michael J. Moss]

My two cents on the 14th:

First off, Mssrs., Coore and Crenshaw must really like the hole because they put the golfer on a long forced march from the 13th green to the 14th tee - a daunting task for a slightly out of shape 51 year old golfer. One of the great things about golf at Bandon is the close proximity between the tees and greens, which to me backs up their claim to offer "golf the way it was meant to be."

I was disappointed with the experience because, in short, after my caddie put a driver in my hand, I proceeded to ruin my round. After a prodigious hook into oblivion, my provisional ball was findable but my problems were just starting. After chopping out, again from the gunk on the left, my ball wound up short and left of the green. After volleying it back and forth over the putting surface, I did the only honorable thing -I surrendered! This was the only instance on the three courses at Bandon where I had a dreaded letter. I had a similar experience last summer on the 17th hole at Crystal Downs, also a hole that I have only played once. I left that green having blown my round with no idea on how to solve it. I got in trouble on that one with a 22 degree hybrid from the tee.

As to the 14th at Bandon Trails, it was my stupidity hitting driver. The problem I have with the hole is the severity of the green. It's too much. I've enjoyed the debate on this website regarding the par-3 11th at CC of Charleston, the reverse redan. I think this green will evoke similar strong emotions from golfers both low handicap and high. The 6th at Pacific Dunes is a small green relative to the others on the course and very difficult to hold especially when approached from the side. It's a piece of cake compared to the 14th at BT.

My sense is that the green we see today will be delicately messaged in the not too distant future. I don't think golfers should be freaked out by any one green, and this one freaked me out! I would guess that public courses are designed with pace of play being an important factor. This green will be altered (and brace yourselves for this...), not out of pace of play considerations, but because our heroes got it wrong!

On a positive note, I think the four par-threes at Bandon Trails, are as fun, challenging and picturesque as any I have ever played.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

The approach at #14 Trails is a good bit more demanding than the 16th at Pac Dunes. Night and day IMHO.

Paul -- you touched upon the nature of the 13th and I do agree with you -- the main weakness of Trails the inferior holes you find from the 7th tee through the 12th -- with the lone exception being the par-4 11th. I'll opine more on Trails as a course on another thread.

Pete:

I played the Trails in heavy moisture moving in from the Pac Ocean. The wind was behind me but not at swift speeds. Generally, the summer wind is from the north and given the high tee elevation the opportunity to reach the green is an issue for a good number of the stronger players to consider.

Frankly, if the player faced a headwind I think the hole would be a bit easier because the wind would serve as a backstop. In the summer wind pattern that's not the case.

Doug:

The Trails is the easiest of the two but I reserve my comments on it for another thread.

From what I can see the best alternative is to hit a mid-iron and try to keep it on the left side -- no small feat mind you. Anyone taking too much club to get close to the green who in fact can't reach it is likely to head to the "sucker zone" and from there all best are off regarding one's fate.

Joel:

Fair point about the routing issue -- but my point was on the nature of the hole. It simply refuses to yield to the half-ass shots that many do play.

Tom D:

How many times must one play a hole before you can comment? If that's the case there are a number of courses in Confidential Guide in which I can certainly say I outnumber you in terms of total plays from key respective courses.

Candidly, I don't think the amount of times is the most important element -- it's how cogent and insightful the analysis is. Can you explain to me what you see that you don't like "yet?"

[Norbert P]

 
Here is the bird's eye and a photo . . .

 http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/bt_hole14.cfm

Hole description ...

Bandon Trails #14: 325 yards, par 4
"Another short par four with a multitude of options. A driver may leave you a shorter and only slightly easier second shot. If you elect to play it safe from the tee, it is best to favor the left side of this fairway, as shots missed to the right will face a blind approach at the most shallow angle to the green. This hole’s greatest defense is its green – the smallest on the course."

[Tom Dunne]

I'm in the pro- camp. I think it's a really fun and interesting hole, and I like the fact that it's the subject of some debate. It would suck if holes were either unimpeachably great or just pure crap. This the type of hole that can wriggle its way into the back of your mind before you've even hit your first shot of the day.

At the very least, it does meet the criteria of providing plenty of options on both drive and approach. I backed off and played it for bogey, hitting a 7-wood (no jokes, please  , I've heard 'em all before ) off the tee, and that is exactly what I got. I know some low markers who would never think that way when stepping up to a drivable par-4, so there's some interesting psychology in play, too. Clearly Matt Ward derived a good amount of pleasure in taking the aggressive line...and then finding out what it's like to be long on that hole! And that's cool, too.

I haven't attempted any shots into that green from the low right side, though I stood down there with Bill Coore back in February and laughed while a chill ran down my spine trying to picture that shot. A similar feeling, I might add, to the one I had standing over my second shot from the low left side on #6 at Pacific Dunes....

[Kevin_Reilly]

Does the "sucker" nature of the tee shot stand up to either multiple plays ("fool me once...") or a decent caddie?  Is it that alluring to go against advice and/or experience?

[CHrisB]

I loved the hole when I saw it--it was unlike anything I had ever seen, and I don't mind the occasional hole where nothing but the perfect shot will do.

I saw it in the winter wind (against), and I remember thinking "you have to hit one super shot to get the ball onto the higher left side of the fairway for the angle in".

I look forward to playing it--it's one of those holes you'd like to tackle late in the day with a small bucket of balls off the tee...

Here are some pics I took in March in fading light...

#14 tee (par 4, 320 yards), high above the left-to-right sloping fairway; the easier approach is from the higher left side


#14; walking to the fairway you can see a hidden bunker left


#14 fairway from the lower right side; very hard to hit the small, elevated green from here, even with a wedge


#14; the approach opens up from the left side


#14 green from front left; very narrow opening


#14 dropoff left of green


#14 below bunkers right of green


#14 big dropoff behind the green


#14 looking back at hidden bunkers long right of green

[Dan Kelly]

Looks like a lot of fun, to me -- but I do wonder: What's the point of the hidden left fairway bunker?

[Tom_Doak]

Winding up in a hidden left fairway bunker is a lot better result than winding up in impenetrable shrubbery at the edges of the course, so I assume that would be the reason for it.

Matt:  Lighten up.  You're always implying that your opinion is more valuable than mine because you played the course more than once, that was just a back-at-ya.  Didn't you see the smiley?  However, I will say that if you play the hole once and drive the green, you'll probably like it a lot more than if you made X.

It is Ben's favorite hole on the course, but that was before he played it, either.  I will be curious to see if they still like the green two years from now.

[Jeff_Brauer]

To me, the neatest thing is the subtlety - many architects, including possibly me! - would more clearly define the two options, whereas the all fw, gradually increasing side slope probably makes it more tempting to aim ever so slightly away from the high left side than a split fw.

Like Tom, I wonder if a green - as Matt describes it - is too difficult for the hole. I don't mind an occaisonal "requires a perfect shot" precision green.

However, conceptually, there is a difference between a precision par 4 and a potentially driveable one, no?  My question is this - if the green doesn't hold a drive that reaches the green, and there is no way except luck to hold any portion of the green from the bail out area, aren't those options effectively nullified as the player learns the course over time?  In this case, I think fair judgement would require several plays!

[Tim Bert]

Everyone seems to love the hole or hate the hole.  I think I'm right in the middle.  I think it can be fun to play, but it certainly isn't my favorite nor least favorite hole on the course.

The first time I played it I whalloped my drive just left of the green and had a delicate chip up the steep bank.  I made par.  The second time, I don't even remember what I made, and it's not necessarily because I didn't play it well.  I think I may have made a 5 or 6.  I was so frustrated with the afternoon round at that course (I played terribly) that I was just thinking about getting back to Pacific Dunes the next day.

I enjoy playing both #6 and #16 at Pacific Dunes more than this one.

I really liked the first 5 holes at Trails and I like the finishing 4.  I thought the beginning sequence was one of the best I've played, but the left of the course was just good.  It's difficult to judge it fairly in my mind because it is so close to Bandon and Pacific and I'd almost always rather play those two.  If this course was just about anywhere else in the world, then I'd probably want to play it more.  I just can't justify going all the way to Oregon for a golf trip and not playing Pacific as much as possible.  

 

[Norbert P]

Nice picts Chris. That montage of images reminds me of # 5 at Royal Dornoch.  

  ( I can hardly wait for Winter Rates to arrive - yurts are calling.)

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Fair point -- but I do encounter plenty of knuckle-heads on this site who take pleasure in ridiculing me when I do make numerous visits to different sites.

I never implied my opinion is more valuable than yours -- I just place a high value in doing on-course homework. In your case with the 14th -- you have played it more collective times than I (although I did hit numerous shots when I was there to see the various playing angles beyond driver from the tee).

Tom -- I don't base my thoughts on a hole through my own play / score. I hit various shots from different angles -- including 3-4 tee shots and was fortunate the first one landed on the front apron and rolled gently off the back.

You do raise a fair point -- the nature of the green may be softened a tad to handle the discrepancies in scoring that take place. But I would resist throwing the baby out with the bath oil if any such changes come down the pike. A tweaking is preferred -- wholesale surgery is not the way to go IMHO.

Frankly, the high handicap player will have an even more demanding time than the better player. The option to go for the green may not be a realistic or even feasible situation for the bulk of such players. Landing in the sucker's zone is clearly where many of their balls will head. And, from that location, all bets are off that many can even handle making bogey from that position.

Jeff:

Fair judgement can be made in one detailed overview of the hole. Since I was by myself late in the day I played more than one shot from the tee -- the first drive landed on the apron and rolled towards the back of the green and I had to chip forward to the front section where the pin was located that day.

No doubt -- the hole puts an absolute premium on precision and frankly isn't that what a great short par is supposed to do?

I mean you have guys falling over themselves on this site with the 24/7 whining on and on about the ball and clubs going too far. Then you have a talented archiectural duo in C&C create such a hole that mitigates the advantage of distance and then what do you get from a few people already on this thread -- the same whining on and on about how unfair the hole is and how they could not do such and such a thing.

My reaction?

Guys -- learn to hit your lob wedge with precision -- I mean how much landing area does a player need when they a 58 or 60 degree club in their hand? Is it scary the shot? Damn right it is. But that's the prerogative of the architect to do that given the short nature of the hole.

I don't deny there is an extreme fine line on the 14th hole. Frankly, I would not begin to lay-up to the right side because the probability in getting close with a 40-50 yard pitch is closer to nil than for me in taking driver or even 3-metal and launching straight ahead at the green.

[Dan Kelly]

To me, the neatest thing is the subtlety - many architects, including possibly me! - would more clearly define the two options, whereas the all fw, gradually increasing side slope probably makes it more tempting to aim ever so slightly away from the high left side than a split fw.

Jeff --

Funny. As I was reading the descriptions and looking at the pictures, I was thinking of two Jeff Brauer holes:

The high-left, low-right, short-4 No. 13 at Giants Ridge Quarry -- where you did, in fact, more clearly define the two options, with that center bunker! How do you think No. 13 would play without that bunker?

The "sucker fairway" right side of No. 9 Quarry at Giants Ridge -- which looks to be the safe side, and IS the safe side, but leaves the "sucker" with a blind second over the hillside.

Did you think of those holes when you were reading about this one?

Dan

[grandwazo]

After double bogeing the hole for the second time in a row, I looked back up at the tee in frustration trying to decide if there was a third way of playing the hole already having tried and failed at a)hitting driver and then trying to bump something up on to the green from the left side and then b) laying back trying to hit a wedge and holding it on the green when I saw what i thought was a rough tee box halfway down the hill that would allow the hole to be played as a par three....anybody else notice that small but distinct outcropping?  Not sure how they would get somebody down there, but if they were to just get rid of the elevated putting surface and just shape the existing terrain, it could be fun, a 200 yard plus downhill par 3...definitely more fun than the hole as it plays now...at least for me.

[Dan Smoot]

Correct me if I am wrong (I am sure someone will).  Doesn't the tee shot at 14 (Trails) remind you a little of No. 6 at Pacific Dunes.  I have not played Trails.

No. 6 lures you into hitting toward that wide open expanse down the left side away from the right side bunker.  If you do, you get what you deserve, having to clear that deep bunker on the face of the hill leading up to the elevated green.  Then you face a hard, narrow green with considerable falloff/runoff on the backside.  A seemingly fine tee shot leaves you looking at a double unless you can hit a high shot an exact distance with the wind playing havoc to a very firm green.

I have explained to you exactly what happened to me the first time at PD.  Since that time, I go at the right bunker and hope I don't push it on the dune (my tendancy is to hook).  That fairway is much narrower than what the eye is telling me.

That little par 4 is one of my favorite golf holes - it is my computer background image.  I love watching people playing this hole for the first time to see if they figure it out, even after telling them how narrow the green is.

This is great golf design.

[THuckaby2]

Dan:

The concepts on the two golf holes are similar, and you described it well.

The huge difference is that the tee shot on 14 BT is SIGNIFICANTLY downhill - that is, you are hitting from the top of a mountain down into a valley of sorts.  The pictures don't really show this, as is the case with most photos they have a flattening effect.

Obviously that's very different from #6 PD on the tee shot.

If anything that's what makes the temptation even greater on 14 BT.  It's so downhill, it makes even average-length drivers like me think I can reach the green.  It's not in my thought process on 6 PD.

I love both the golf holes.  Both have incredible greensites, and leave the toughest pitch shots you can imagine.  They seem to me to be equal in that respect.

And yes, this is great golf design - on both holes.

TH

ps - there is more than one way to make a birdie on 14BT - overdo oneself thinking one can drive the green and push it right - dump pitch into bunker - hole out from there.  

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

The temptation to go with the driver at #14 is clearly present. I will say this -- it's better to take one's chance and go with the big stick than to lay-up and have the ball roll into the sucker's zone. Once you land in the SZ you need to have total faith and command of the SW or Lob Wedge.

What's amusing is that people bitch and moan about a short hole but don't realize that devotion to accuracy is the key element of that type of hole.

I concur with you -- the 14th is a superior short par-4 and as I said at the outset has the wherewithal to be mentioned among the other great short par-4's we have in the States IMHO.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

Absolutely - there is NO good spot in that sucker's zone.  The pitch from there has to be hit with perfect length and spin and if anything from 100 yards in, it seems to get TOUGHER the closer you get.

The obvious detriment to just wailing away with driver though is that anything left is pretty much re-load.  And given one also pretty dead going right, man it is quite the quandary on the tee-box, for thinking golfers anyway.  I've only played the shot twice, but the more I've thought about it the more I agree with those who say there is NO safe way to play that golf hole, so you might as well just bang away.  And that is fine with me - because it's not crystal clear, we may not have yet FOUND the safe way to play it, and even if it doesn't exist, well there's room in the golf world for heroic bitchass shots also.  

Final thought:  hell yes this is an ACCURACY golf hole all over.. in fact I'd agree it's one of the world's greats in that respect.  Sure power helps - makes it easier to reach the green - but one way or another that's a needle to be threaded, so I'll take Cal Peete over Tom Watson to hit my tee shot for me.  Then once they miss, Tiger gets the approach.

 

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