[Jonathan Cummings]

Thanks Rich,

Actually, as Tim Weiman has pointed out to me, the GCA barbs are thrown pretty much with kids gloves on.  Try a political discussion group (like any recent thing on Trent Lott) if you want to see real name calling and mud slinging.  You'll come running back to GCA and laugh at the spats.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul, I to have to agree with Jon Davis and the other anons as I just think all of this politics stuff stinks and is WAY off subject for this website. I think we need to remember that this is a golf architecture website, plain and simple.

This isn't to say that your piece on Bryant Gumbel wasn't interesting and without really informative fact. (I didn't get to see it on the other thread as I'm trying my best to avoid it.)
There is hyprocracy everywhere. I can only hope HBO isn't taking Inside Sports--an excellent program which I happen to look forward to seeing every month--and creating even more hyprocracy by not divulging even more hard facts, and then disgusing it as intelligent journalistic decision. As a viewer of ALL of their extensive programming, I would feel very slighted misguided and even worse--deceived.

[Paul Richards]

Tommy:

Thanks for your response.  And for signing you name.

The fact is that it is hard to believe that someone like Martha Burk lets Bryant Gumbel slide on an interview like this.  Burk is trying to make a point.  Gumbel is very influential, and she lets this slide.  Doesn't make any sense to me.

It really has nothing to do with architecture.  You're right on that count.

However, it does have something to do with Burning Tree and that is what this thread is all about.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul,
And that is why this thread belongs on a non-golf architecture discussion group.

The fact is that this Golf Club Atlas is probably an escape from reality for me and probably countless others who enjoy GOLF ARCHITECTURE. I don't want real world stories because in the real world the stories aren't very good. In fact, they're  depressing! Golf Architecture isn't depressing to me, it is more then interesting. At least much more then some lobbyist with a point to prove that men are evil and always have been.  

I like Golf Club Atlas because I can learn, read, decipher, speculate, postulate, act like an ass, get kicked in the ass, and even call other people names that would surely get my ass kicked everytime--just as long as it is Golf Architecture related.

However, Augusta National should blame Hootie Blowfish for all of this. He is the one that opened the door for Ms. Burk, and has still yet to show her a bit of that southern hospitality that Augusta National is so famous for.

In actuality, I don't give a flying hootenanny what Martha Burk thinks about Augusta National, unless it is to file protest about the hideous changes that Hootie Blowfish and Tom Fazio are making there. Yet, I do think it is wrong for a HBO executive to basically cover-up pertinent information regarding the person giving the interview, as well as the subject matter at hand.  Shame on Bryant Gumble for not having the intelligence to actually step back and say, "I have a conflict here. If I do this interview, I risk this because I have this conflict, and therfore I don't want to do this, so therfore I'm not." At that point, it would have been end of story.

But getting back to off-subject threads, I'm the guy that once started one about showerheads, and just how off topic could that have been? Granted that the shower heads in question were at Merion, Pine Valley and other great locales, as well as their importance in manufacturer, gallons per minute, and rinse factor.

All kidding aside, I think the Martha Burk/Suzie Whaley thing is really being beaten like a stray cur. I want from you, a top notch thread on a golf architecture related subject matter that will knock their socks off! Give me one Paul! Give it to me! Lets get some really great threads going on Beverly or something. Dig some old photos up of the Ross bunkering or terrific greensites that can stimulate discussion. This is YOUR assignment, and it is worth 100 points extra credit! I'll even post them for you if needed.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Are you suggesting that Clinton practiced some double standard if and when he ever played Burning Tree? You should probably establish the FACT that he did play Burning Tree. And after you've conclusively established that FACT you might need to be prepared to debate with Clinton the meaning of "played". Even if you can only establish the FACT that he was there you might need to be prepared to debate with him what the meaning of "was there" is!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I have no problem with Clinton playing Burning Tree.
I have no problem with Clinton playing around, with PEERS.

Tommy Naccarato

I too, have a problem with HBO-Martha & Bryant.

I would speculate that Martha knew about Bryant's membership prior to the actual taping of the show.
It's difficult for me to believe that all parties didn't do their homework prior to taping the show.

If you were going to interview me on a controversial issue,
I sure as heck would find out as much about you as possible before going on the air.

I suspect that Martha traded great HBO exposure for her principles.

HBO & Bryant had an obligation to disclose this information to everyone prior to the interview.

Has Martha Burk suggested that black members resign from ANGC and Burning Tree ?

I dislike Martha's tactics and I'm disappointed in Hootie's handling of the situation.  Someone, anyone, bring in the relief pitchers.  

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[wsmorrison]

Jonathan,
Thanks for the Burning Tree information.

Gary,
Sorry so few posts addressed your initial inquiry.  I have been told that William Flynn redid the 10, 11, 12, and some of the 13th holes at Burning Tree.  This information apparently came from an old guard member of the club.  I was also told that the short par 4 12th (I think) is "the best hole" on the course by a knowledgeable pro that has played there (Adam Messix).  Adam, Craig Disher, and I are looking into the work of Flynn there.
Flynn did other designs and hole redesigns in the DC area such as the 1st hole and the 2nd green at Columbia CC.  He designed 18 holes at Manor CC and an additional 9 hole short course with the back 9 intact with major changes and the front 9 going in reverse (Collis).  He redesigned 4 or 5 holes at Friendship GC (across from present Sidwell site) which is really close to downtown DC.
I haven't found anyone yet that knows anything about Friendship (even Craig Disher never heard of it) although an old guard member at Manor is being questioned by Craig.  If anyone has any information about these courses, please email or message me.  
Thanks, and happy holidays to all.
Wayne

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