[Anthony_Nysse]

Adam,
  We have alot of members who prefer the fairways longer because it gives them a cushin under the ball...they like the "fluff".....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[John Kirk]

TE,
I think Pronghorn is pretty well in balance, but there are some shots where the player is going to have to use the ground option to get close to the flag. The course is firm, the greens only dent and the ball will move after hitting the ground. No mud on your ball here and the player needs to factor in how far his ball will go after it hits the ground. But, it is a Nicklaus course and there are greens that will need to be approached through the air. You just better not fly it to the flag unless your grooves are clean!

I heard the greens were rock hard.  But USGA spec greens will soften over time to firm but fair, depending on the superintendent's talent.  That's the way they should be broken in.

Bend is really dry.  Portland gets 38 inches of rain per year; more as you move west.  Bend only gets about 5-7 inches.  It's very pretty in Bend, high desert with stunted trees, and lots of relatively recent volcanic activity.  I'm anxious to hear/see what Tom Fazio does with the lava tubes discovered while constructing the course.

Maybe I should try to get out and play it.  Can you walk up with $200 and ask to play?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Actually, USGA greens are designed to drain quickly-so the can be firm in a quicker period of time. Greens are usually their softest in their earliest years because the soil/sand doesn't really have any sort of compaction or organic matter...

Muni, Here's a pic of #15 at Hudson National-look at the small stripes in the fairways...walked Mowed!!  http://www.hngcnet.com/Images/Library/15.jpg

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[John Kirk]

I'm surprised you say that, Anthony.  Pumpkin Ridge's greens were like a billiard table the first year.  That's my sense of what Pronghorn is like now.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom Doak,
Just curious. While in Bend did you get a chance to stop by Brasada Ranch, the Jac/Hardy course under construction just east of Pronghorn?

[Anthony_Nysse]

When they say "the honeymoon is over" it's usually cause they've been at a position long enough that the Superin is now longer introduced at "Meet our new Superintendent....." are the honeymoon is over with a certain type of green because after 3-4 years, members think that it should be figured out....What was the hotline number for the banding together of superintendents.....?
  As far as firmness...look at the older courses that have not gone through a seriour greens renovation that included new grass...I'll write more later, but you don't hear about Shinnecok or Oakmont, Merion or PV's greens being soft....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt,
Long Cove Club

[Chris Munoz]

With green firmness, I think it all has to deal with what the superintendent practices on his greens, topdressing, drainage, spraying, and turf selection.  More and more older golf courses are heavily topdressing there greens and installing in greens drainage-"XGD" which Oakmont is installing....

Fairways, with the new light-weight fairway mowers superintendents can go the extra mile and lower there height of cut and do no damage.  I remember when Bob Alonzi mowed the fairways at Winged Foot by hand...I coul dnot believe what I saw...

Muni

[Josh_Mahar]

All greens will soften over time no matter how talented the super is.  Now if the right practices are diligently practiced, the softening process takes more time and can be minimized but it will happen.  
Bend is the place to grow grass no doubt!!  I have seen pix of Pronghorn and the turf does look amazing.  
The shorter you cut Bent fairways--the better they will be IMHO.  Depends on the climate as to whether you will need to do a lot of spraying, verticutting, etc to keep them nice.  Too many clubs want Bent fairways, but to keep them from becoming mush - topdressing , verticutting and careful watering practices must be adhered to.  Those all cost money unless you've got it--most clubs should stay away from bent fairways IMHO.

[T_MacWood]

I haven't been out there in a number of years, but at the time Double Eagle had the tightest fairways I've played over.

[JohnV]

Witch Hollow, a 13 year old bent course, is about 20-25% poa now.  We have always mowed the fairways very tight, probably 3/8 of an inch.

I can remember when Pumpkin Ridge's fairways were so tight that a friend of mine from the Oregon coast complained that the only think that felt like a fairway to him was the first cut.  I pointed out that he had 2 "fairways" on every hole.

I also remember running the Portland Invitational there and all the Hooters tour guys who played were whining about the tight fairways and not being able to get the lob wedge under the ball  compared to what they were used to the lusher Bermuda ones down south.  I pointed out that every green had an opening in front and that perhaps a chip and run would be better than a lob wedge from the fairway.  But, they didn't get that idea.

[Steve Okula]

All greens will soften over time no matter how talented the super is.  

I agree with Josh.

I think that new greens take time to develop a layer of thatch. Without that cushion, they play very hard the first year or two. The firmness of an aged green depends largely on how well that thatch layer is kepr under control.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Let me go into more detail as to how and why an older green can and will remain firmer longer....POA greens will soften much faster over time. If a bentgrass green is planted and the proper culture practices are done (Plant Air, Dry ject, aerify, liquid fertilizer, topdressing, brushing, grooming, verticuting, removal of poa, etc...) older greens will be firmer. Poa is a much more "sticky" grass that CAN retain water longer, partly because it's a bunch type grass, which makes it much more difficult for water to get through the soil, making is softer. It is okay to have a 1/2 inch layer of thatch.
  I also recommend using much more of liquid fertilizer than a granular because a graular usually has much more Nitrogen in it, which will allow for the more Organic matter to form, which leads to a denser thatch layer.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[T_MacWood]

MacKenzie wrote:

"It is possible to have too high a degree of perfection. I remember many years ago at Sunningdale, a fussy, oily individual coming up to Harry Colt and saying, 'I really must congratulate you Mr. Colt, on your fairways, they are perfect.' Colt, who objected to this kind of man, answered some what testily: 'I don't agree with you at all.' 'Why not, Mr. Colt?' he said, 'the lies are too damed good' was his reply."


MacKenzie also said it was more pleasing to the eye to have varying shades of green instead of one uniform tint.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

"I also recommend using much more of liquid fertilizer than a granular because a graular usually has much more Nitrogen in it, which will allow for the more Organic matter to form, which leads to a denser thatch layer."


Tony,
Without going into an indepth agronomic debate, lets just say I believe a good super can regulate the amount of nitrogen applied to greens, with whatever method of delievery he chooses. For instance, if I apply an organic granular (WIN)with an anaylsis of 4-2-8, and I apply N at the .25 lb rate on a monthly basis, am I going to create more thatch then if I spray .10 lb every 10 days?  I know what your saying, but I think it's a bit too general of a statement, at least for my tastes.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Don,
  Actually, I think that you will because the plant is going to take up that .25# of N as quick as possible, therefore resulting in a quick upgrowth of the plant, even when using organics and slow releases, or even polyon. At .1# on N every 10 to 14 days, the plant can only take up so much and isn't allowed to form a mat later nearly as quick....I understand that there are DEFINATLY times when granulars are the way to go and I've used that, but we mostly spray a fert in our spray rig ever 10-14 days.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tony,
The plant can't take up what isn't available. A good organic source of N will break down over time based on a lot of different factors. You’re a recent turf grad so I will not bore you with a lecture on the N cycle, but I think you’d have to agree that a high quality organic N has to be mineralized by soil organisms before it starts to be available to the plant. The plant may want to take it up, but it can’t have it before nature has done the work. The longer I do this the more I return to the basics and shy away from the more modern methods. I still spray iron, biostimulants, kelp extracts and humates, but almost no NPK is in my spray mix. My moss has just about completely gone away, my greens are pretty consistent with low clipping yields, ball marks heal up pretty quick, and the greens show little wear from high summer traffic.

Because we had such a severe moss problem we had to explore all our options. I'm no scientist, but common sense told me that if moss has no roots, it can only get it's nutrition from the air, water, or whatever is available on the surface. I chose to try and keep my nutrients in the root zone away from the moss with the idea that my grass would have the nutrients it needed to take over the moss rather then the other way around. The nutrient program is only one part of the moss eradication puzzle, but it's an important part and I like the results.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Don,
  You and I both know when using organics such as Milorganite or 4-2-8, were dealing with a totally different fertilizer than an Anderson's 18-5-0 or 9-18-18...different fert than is available for most people, but yes, I'm in much agreement you in the "beauty" of organics.
  We just started a new program using bioslimulants and a new humate program to crack down on fairyring and pink patch and spring dead spot.....We, too, are learning to go back to the basics as much of programs are going back to organics....With everything available to us now, we still have to remember the basics. Look forward to talking with you more in the future. I'd be interested to hear more about your mosss eradication, as my dad, a super in Michigan, has started to see moss on several greens.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove CLub
HHI, SC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony Nysse,

Perhaps you're viewing the issue in a different aspect.

It's been my limited experience that new greens "play" hard for the first few years.

With approach shots, balls bounce hard, high and long for 2-3 years and gradually reach their normal ability to be receptive after that initial, interim period.

I've never seen healthy, SOFT, new greens.

I have seen HARD new greens overwatered until they were SOFT, and then they had to be replaced a few years later.

As the twig bendeth, so groweth the tree.

[Sean McCue]

Tony,

Back To Basics.  You hit the nail on the head with that statement, unfortunately not enough Superintendent's really know what that is.  It all starts and finishes with using what mother nature gave us. It is up to the Superintendent to figure out what materials will best help his or her growing conditions.  I have been utlizing organic products for many years now with great success.  Last year 80% of my total fertility came from organic materials this year it will be 90%.  The quality of the conditions as well as the appearence of the golf course have improved dramically.  I can speak first hand about the topic of this thread because we mow are fairways at .250" and they are some of the best you will find around.  The use of these organic products have allowed me to address some of my soil and water quality issues and produce extremely high quality playing conditions.  

Sean  

[cary lichtenstein]

I don't think it is necessary or even all that desirable to move fairway to greens height. Very few of us can take advantage of this with our games, let alone the higher handicaper who can't get a wood airborne off these fairways.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Sean,
  Do you work with Justin Ritts? He was my classmate at Michigan State-Tell him hello for me. And for the record, I love tight fairways!!!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Sean McCue]

Cary,

I think you would be amazed at the amount of ball roll you can get.  In addition to that the lateral ball movement in the fairway contours is fun to watch.

Tony,

No i do not know Justin.  I am in Colorado.

Sean

[Anthony_Nysse]

Sean,
  I thought that Justin worked at CC of the Rockies?

[Sean McCue]

Tony,

I'm at The Country Club at Castle Pines.

Sean

[CBFriars]

Once again,

Don't anyone listen to Tony...he doesn't know what he's talking about.  1/2 inch of thatch is probably from all those foliars your using Tony.  By the way...don't you work?, I noticed some of your posts are during the day, how does your boss feel about that?  Maybe your one of those guys who has a laptop wired up in his cart.

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