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observer

Re: Rankings, and "The Pine Valley Effect"
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2002, 09:39:23 AM »
Trred corridors or not?

The biggest threat to Crump's original vision for Pine Valley is the current Fazification of the rough areas in play, turning them into equitable areas.  Fazio's influence on the world of Philadelphia golf as the chosen son, annointed as the world's greatest living architect capable of no harm-unspeakably beyond understanding as he incorporates Pine Valley like areas into his designs and encourages the Pine Valley evolution towards that sterilised ideal so that they will be one day indistinguishable.

Pine Valley was conceived as unmeasurably difficult yet containing some of the most brilliant architectural strategy seen before or since in such density.  That has always been the greatness of Pine valley, the unwavering quality of the architecture hole after hole.

Trees were never in play with well placed shots and rarely do so today save trees grown in the approach lines of abandoned bunkers such as on the left side of the sublime strategy of the twelfth.

Pine Valley's corridors of pine forest are mainly a choice of aesthetics at this point in time.  Whether or not Messrs. Crump and Colt et alia intended for there to be the splendid isolation that I have heard it called is really irrelevant as there is merely a question of aesthetics at this point versus the total change of character and intent with the absurd degree of housecleaning seen in the once ragged unkept forbidden areas changing them into virtual landscape architectural golfy gardens of the zen master.

The true Deity of Pine Valley effect is systematically being eliminated in the name of that heathen  export of American  Golf, fairness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rankings, and "The Pine Valley Effect"
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2002, 02:22:54 PM »
Observer,

Could you describe in detail, on a hole by hole and location basis, exactly what rough areas are being turned into equitable areas, and exactly how this is being done ?

Could you also tell us, definitively, if Fazio just went out on his own one night and performed these alterations, without anybody's knowledge, or were they, in fact, the club's idea ?

Many rave about Fazio's 10 hole short course, claiming that it is a very acceptable likeness of its big brother.  
How was Fazio able to accomplish that ?  

Others rave about the rightside 8th green, claiming that it is a mirror image of its original twin.
How was Fazio able to accomplish that ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings, and "The Pine Valley Effect"
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2002, 02:25:59 PM »
Pat - I believe that the right side green on hole #8, which was there for 15 years or so, has been removed.  JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rankings, and "The Pine Valley Effect"
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2002, 02:38:45 PM »
Patrick;

At the risk of offending anyone, I am guessing what "observer" is referring to is the fact that the sandy waste areas at Pine Valley are considerably more manicured, "cleaned up", and formalized in recent years than they seem to have been historically.

Other changes, like the widening of the left side bunker on #10 (the former had been much more 'trenchlike') are part of what seems to be a trend to make the course a bit more fair, playable, and forgiving.  

Other than knowing that Tom Fazio is working with the club as the consulting architect, I really don't claim to know the rest of the impetus or rationale for this change.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rankings, and "The Pine Valley Effect"
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2002, 04:06:43 PM »
Pat:

There're still some areas at Pine Valley that might have trees blocking some of the old shot angles, even from a few fairways, but again, they're considering some of those areas for clearing. I doubt they'll ever clear back to the extent you may be talking about from that old photo though.

I agree with you that trees should be cleared back on the right of #1 as they do block a short drive from the fairway. It would be hard to say what Crump would think of that as he was very particular about the right corner of that hole and actually brought the bunkering farther to the left on the inside.

#6 clearing way back on the right exposing a peak at the green would be awesome but I doubt they would ever do that!

#9 has some trees on the right which probably block some shot angles from the fairway to the right green (a green Crump neither planned or saw).

On #11 I would love to see clearing well back on the right to give the golfer almost a peak at the green from the tee but I actually think the trees semi-blocking a drive to the left, even if in the fairway is a great strategic feature using trees. Those left side trees in the driving zone force some really good tee shot options!

#12 it would be just great to see the bunkering on the left cleared of the tree overgrowth and expose the green from the tee. This could be up to 30-40 yards of clearing back.

On #13 Crump actually wanted the golfer on the tee to almost see the flag but that would take some real clearing back on the left. There's a ton of room between #13 & #15! But the tree outgrowth on the right through the fairway was very much planned by Crump and in my opinion is a fantastic strategic feature as it forces the long hitter not to go too far out to the right to safety and to also deal with the penal left side and for shorter drivers to deal with Hollman's hollow!

#15 needs some tree clearing along the right side and I think some real clearing on the hill to the left from about 100 yds in exposing the old bunkers on the hillside would be great. That would give a golfer the option of trying to hit a high fade into that green from the fairway, something that would likely be a very high demand and dangerous shot.

#17 is another story altogether.

But trees have been cleared on some holes. #2, #3 (notice all the expanse of sand here in the last year, particularly on the right near the green?), #4 to the left of the green, #6, #14!

As for sandy waste areas vegetating over the years--that's certainly true--some just overgrowth, and other areas for maintenance reasons such as the front to #2 and #18.

But "guest" above does have a point about the bunkering maintenance of Pine Valley. They still have no rakes on the course but they are starting to sand-pro much of the bunkering which was something that was rarely done in the past.

So it appears there's a little of this, a little of that going on maybe sort of going both ways but PV is still a super great golf course. There's an awful lot that a lot of courses could learn from PV, not the least of which is how much they venerate their designer!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Rankings, and "The Pine Valley Effect"
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2002, 06:20:31 AM »
That new, right-side Fazio green at 8 was installed because the original was having some serious agronomic problems, wasn't it, Tom? If I recall correctly, a number of trees surrounding the original green have been removed in recent years, and today, it's in much better health, which is presumably why the Fazio green is no longer needed.

Imagine, they built a new green, when all they had to do was take down a few trees  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rankings, and "The Pine Valley Effect"
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2002, 07:18:01 AM »
I'm really surprised to hear that the "new" 8th green is going the way of the dinosaur.  It was the site of perhaps the most preposterously low-percentage up and down I ever made (from the back bunker to a back hole location) and although I think the original is unparalleled, the Fazio green was quite a good one in its own right.

Are they ploughing it under, or just letting it drift into disuse?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rankings, and "The Pine Valley Effect"
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2002, 08:41:02 AM »
Frankly, the addition of right #8 green at Pine Valley is a fairly interesting story a bit different from what's been mentioned above.

There're also some very humorous elements to it all still today--or maybe I should say good humored elements and they almost all revolve around Mr Ransome, whose idea right #8 green apparently was.

But why did the idea come up? It was mentioned that there  may've been too many trees around the original left #8 green and why didn't they just cut them down and give the green more light? Frankly, I never heard that was a problem or THE problem (alhough it might have had something to do with it).

The primary problem was the original left #8 is a very small green (2977sf) on a short hole with pitch shots coming into it and some years ago PVGC had a tremendous amount of play (quite a bit more than today) and the green was just taking a helluva beating!

So the thought was to build another green to the right of it to take some of the pummeling off of the original instead of altering the original by obviously expanding it, something that, in my opinion, should never be considered and something that would actually be very difficult to do without destroying both the character and concept of #8 and it's original green.

So, I'm glad Mr Ransome and TFazio did what they did there given the problems they had back then. But play is down now so ironically right #8 is not so much needed and doesn't seem to be used much. In all my time at PVGC I think I've played right #8 less than a half dozen times. Right #8, by the way, is 2685 sf!

But they had a big good natured party for Mr Ransome not that long ago and apparently, in the vein of the feeling of some of PVGC's purists, one of them stood up and toasted Ernie saying they sure did hope he would live an unusually long life but when he did die they were planning on scattering his ashes on right #8 green and then blowing the whole damn thing up!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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