[cary lichtenstein]

What course are these bunkers, Whistling Straits?

[Top100Guru]

Excellent Point Mucci, excellent point!!!!

.......to that point, may I also add, that if it had not only had the "rough edges" around the bunkers, but also had a "Signature" of the GCA "Favorite Son" that it too might have been heralded!!!

[Pete Buczkowski]

If someone has time and is good with Photoshop, I'd like to see what the approach looks like without the two center bunkers.  It would allow the terrain to act as a natural hazard up to the green, and allow the other bunkers to stand out.  Strategically, it would allow a place to layup (especially since its a 400 yard hole), and give some deception to the tee shot & approach, since the dip wouldn't be as obvious.  The rest of the complex looks functionally fine to me if you ignore the "look".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Post some pictures of the 5th 10th, 12th, 13th and 15th at Cypress Point, the 12th at Indian Creek, the 1938 aerial of Shinnecock, the 9th green at Long Meadow, the 9th at TCC, the 13th and 18th at Pasatiempo in their early years and then tell me that overkill is overkill in a universal context, and not just a phrase directed toward those that don't enjoy "most favored nation" status amongst the cognoscente on this site.

Better yet, buy and read Geoff Shackelford's book,
"The Golden Age of Golf Design" before you start casting stones.

[peter_p]

Is he trying to replicate a dimple design? Increased maintenance costs, does not affect the course rating, it does
affect the slope rating big time with a forced layup, gave me the heebie jeebie shivers.

[John Kirk]

Overkill may be overkill, but I still prefer the look at Whistling Straits better than the hole in question.

What I don't like is the way mid and high handicappers are punished by these bunkers.  Weak slices of varying magnitudes are punished with 30-70 yard bunker shots, an absolute disaster.

[NAF]

This is the Heinz 57 hole at Hollywood..



endearing or overkill?  

[George Pazin]

Pete, your wish is my command.

Fast and dirty:


I think I'd actually prefer to leave the center ones and lose some of the others.

As an aside, I never thought I'd see the day that someone used photos from Geoff's books to rationalize the overkill in the photos Scott posted.

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

You're absolutely correct.

It's not the center bunkers that are at issue here.  It's the "rows" of lateral bunkers that are unsightly and a playability nightmare.

[Mike_Cirba]

Noel,

Yes, of course the Heinz 57 Hole at Hollywood is overkill, but it's our overkill, so we love it anyway...  

[Mike_Cirba]

In fact, George,  try one with just the center bunkers and nothing else, or maybe just with the center bunkers and the one fronting the green on the right.

[corey miller]

Is there really most favored architect's status on this board?

[Mike_Cirba]

Corey,

Didn't you see the application over near where you came in?  

[George Pazin]

Geez, Mike, do you think I don't have a life?

Well, you're right!

[Sean McCue]

Gone to the well one too many times.

[Mike_Cirba]

Nice job, George.

I'm trying to determine if the right-most bunker you can see in the pic is actually part of that bunker I asked you to include.  

I know you have a life, but we'll discuss it when you come out here for the AM.  

[Pete Buczkowski]

Thanks for the Photoshop work George!  I must say I don't agree with you and Mike - those center bunkers are wholly unnecessary since the ravine itself should pose enough hazard.  But now looking at your picture, it looks like there still is not a safe "layup" option on this 400+ yard hole like I had hoped - I don't like that sliver of fairway in front of the green.  

[Kirk Gill]

While there are too many bunkers, what bugs me the most is that the totality of the shapes does not work. The placement of the bunkers and the shapes created by them and the spaces in between are not, to me, attractive. Even if the bunkers were as rough around the edges as the latest minimalist design......

The question was how "attractive" the complex is.

Not very.

[SL_Solow]

I agree that there are a group of "most favored " architects on the board.  Whether their status is undeserved would make for an interesting debate.  What I find curious is thatwhenever the argument is raised, "if architect x had created the offending feature you would praise it" the fact is that architect x did not create the feature.  Invariably, the poster fails to give an example where architect x has committed a similar "error."  While every architect has probably done work he or she regrets, perhaps those in the most favored category have done less.  Its not enough to claim bias unless you can point to similar work being treated differently and isolated examples won't make the argument unless the criticized work is also an isolated example inconsistent with the style of the "less favored" architect.

[George Pazin]

There are favored everythings in life (sorry about the jumbled English).

We each have posters we tend to agree with more often, and thus favor.

We each have preconceived ideas for courses that we thus favor.

We each have architects we enjoy and are predisposed to favor.

That's called being a human being. Non thinking animals might not have opinions and thus favorites, but thankfully there are only a couple non-thinking animals on this site.

Whether or not it gets in the way of thoughtful discussion is the real question, and IMHO it most definitely does not.

P.S. to Pete - I see what you mean about the ravine's contour, and I think you're right. I think I'd favor no bunkers on this terrain!

[Kris Kerr]

Pete, George

Maybe the centre bunker's there not as a hazard particularly but to catch balls before they roll to the bottom of the ravine...

[Mike_Sweeney]

Another view..

[MikeJones]

My attempt!

Tried to make it look more interesting and less 'in your face' while at the same time giving the hole another play option. It's fun to play with stuff like this but of course it's really just opinions as to what looks or plays best.

[Pete Buczkowski]

My attempt!

Tried to make it look more interesting and less 'in your face' while at the same time giving the hole another play option. It's fun to play with stuff like this but of course it's really just opinions as to what looks or plays best.

Thanks Mike!  I much prefer your rendition, but since I'm a hooker take it with a grain of salt.  

BTW I was a big fan of Royal County Kilderry.  

[T_MacWood]

"Do you think this is an attractive bunker complex?"

No.

Only Pat Mucci could compare this to Cypress Point. Good eye.

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