[Mike_Cirba]

It was impossible to anticipate a day at Trump National without preconceived notions.  

Here was The Donald, Mr. Trump, building a course on the former estate of the late automotive kingpin and convicted felon John DeLorean, and asking Tom Fazio to build a course that could someday host the US Open or other major event.  Money would be no object and I imagined a course filled with bloated excess, conspicuous consumption, and showy, gaudy features focused more on the look than the golf.  The fact that I knew the course was tipped out at 7560 yards with a course rating of  77.3 and a slope of 147 did little but add to my sense of overkill.

Certainly, Mr. Trump’s preceding ventures into golf seemed to uphold that vision.  The course in Westchester county with the largest man-made waterfall in golf, the fields of bunkers at his course in Florida, the on the cliffs reclamation project in California, all of which were more conversation pieces than great golf courses.

So it was with a sense of bemusement that I drove through horse country of central New Jersey, and turned up the gate and onto the one mile long drive to the manor house which serves as the clubhouse.

What I found was stunning and surprising.  Instead of some paean to modern golf, Trump National is a sedate, low-keyed, understated, restrained golf course that lays light on the lovely land.  Even more surprising is that hole after hole I found myself captivated, inspired, challenged and reminded of what is much of the best things we appreciate in classic golf course architecture.  

Most of the fairways offered fairly broad expanses, and plenty of room to maneuver for position.  The greensites, splendidly selected, offered amazing variety and interest.  It was Tillinghast who believed that a great course should stringently test the approach shot and this is truly a “second shot” course, with greens perched in all sort of interesting angles and surroundings that demanded the best from the player attacking the pin, but generally offered bailouts and easier plays for the less accomplished golfer.  In some ways, the course reminded me of a mixture of both Augusta National and Winged Foot, and instead of a lot of concave, containing features, Trump National instead was filled with convex, edge of trouble, rolling features that would collect a slightly mishit ball into trouble if one took too aggressive a line.

The property itself is splendid, with lots of rolling countryside and some mature woodlands, and unlike many Tom Fazio courses I’ve played, the routing was superb and took full advantage of many of the natural landforms.  I learned that Tom Fazio spent a great deal of time onsite, eventually working through 22 different versions of the routing to arrive at the final product.  Earthmoving was generally kept to a minimum, with some fairways needing to be ledged into a steeper slope, but for the most part, the hand of man was well hidden and only some needless rolls to the sides of a few of the holes on the more bland part of the property, as well as some equally useless tree planting detracted from the natural views.

The greens themselves were wondrous and placed demands on both the approach shot and putting, as well as positioning of the drive.  Unlike many Tom Fazio courses I’ve seen, true classic strategy was employed, where a drive or approach successfully challenging a hazard were rewarded with optimum positioning or an easier putt.  They contained rolls both subtle and overt, and contained false fronts, back and side fadeaways, treacherous borrows, and lovely integration with their surrounds.  They ranged from precipitous top of the horizon, perched up greens to others that flowed right out of the fairway at grade, to others tucked into little hollows.  Their shapes ranged from Mackenzian boomerangs and kidneys to Rossian upturned bowls, to Flynn type greens flowing from the fairway, each with an original twist by the designer that made them both derivative and original and to me at least, evidence of time and attention spent during the building process.

Bunkering was similarly restrained, only 67 of them in total (although some were massive), but with each serving a purpose that contributed to the golf at hand.  Many of them had the look of a Tillinghast, but some of the holes built on more undulating land could have been lifted from Prairie Dunes, not so much in surrounds, but in playability.  There were bunkers that plunged 15 or more feet below green surface, with sharp ledging, that would have made Raynor or Banks proud.

The club itself is much more low-key and tasteful than I would have expected, with perhaps the only questionable features being the fountains that sit in front of and behind the clubhouse, the latter backing the 10th tee, flowing just off the patio in the fashion of a Merion.  

Water comes into play more than I mostly prefer, but those hazards are very natural looking and are well utilized, once again adding to the hole than being there as a showpiece, and almost always offering a way to navigate around them.  There are also some forced carries from the tee over native, broken ground, and wetlands, but the five sets of tees (we played the middle at 6770 yards) make this more of a challenge than a burden.  

All in all, I was wowed.  I will try to give a hole by hole breakout over the weekend, but for now, I would summarize by saying that I believe Trump National is a superb golf course that is one of the top five golf courses in the state of New Jersey.  The word great comes to mind.

[A_Clay_Man]

Great wrte-up Mike.
Sounds like the ol' boy had it in'em along. I suspect the real key to the success, is within this paragraph.

 I learned that Tom Fazio spent a great deal of time onsite, eventually working through 22 different versions of the routing to arrive at the final product.  Earthmoving was generally kept to a minimum, with some fairways needing to be ledged into a steeper slope, but for the most part, the hand of man was well hidden and only some needless rolls to the sides of a few of the holes on the more bland part of the property, as well as some equally useless tree planting detracted from the natural views.

While you mentioned some of the features of the golden agers being emulated, did you find anything new or "strickly Fazio", like a signature, perhaps? I'm not sure if what i'm asking for is clear, and since it is all opinion (and I think we all should know to trust yours) was there anything that pushed the gca envelope (so to speak)?

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam,

Great question.

I have to run but I'll try to answer quickly.  What I found most impressive was as much what he didn't do as what he did.  He only seemed to add as much to the land as was necessary to yield exciting and fun golf.

As far as uniquely creative features, what I also was stunned by was the way he blended the old and the new in a course that remained eminently challenging yet accommodated all levels of players.  That's not easy given the stated intent.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Like Tom MacWood, you've got your facts all wrong.

Most of the design of the golf course was there before Trump was involved.

Like Easthampton, most of the routing was inherited as was much of the design.

It's amazing what going on site and actually seeing a golf course can do, versus your perception of it from the Ivory Tower.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

Like Tom MacWood, you've got your facts all wrong.

Most of the design of the golf course was there before Trump was involved.

Like Easthampton, most of the routing was inherited as was much of the design.

It's amazing what going on site and actually seeing a golf course can do, versus your perception of it from the Ivory Tower.

Patrick,

You're confused me.  I was told by the GM that Fazio went through 22 routings to come up with the final product.  That same GM told me his company sold the land to Trump.  

I was onsite, just this past Wednesday, and walked and played all 18 holes.  If I live in an Ivory Tower, it's more likely built with chalk.  

If my facts are wrong, please correct me.  Who did the routing(s)?

If my very favorable impressions of the golf course are wrong, I'd like to hear a countering viewpoint.

[Lou_Duran]

MC,

There is a God!  I didn't know if you or Fazio had it within (you- that you can appreciate what he can do; him- that he can build something you might like).

Nice write-up, even with the gratuitious reference to DeLorean's little tiff with the law.  I do look forward to your individual hole analysis.  

[Marty Bonnar]

Very nice critique, Mr C.
Hopefully, you had a digicam in the golfbag? Would be nice to see the evidence (as everyone knows, you don't have to visit a golf course to know if it's any good )

FBD.

[RJ_Daley]

Mike,

I'm sure I can't possibly comprehend all your adjective laced and superlatively biased, Fazio butt-boy verse, without the aid of a few photos.   I'll tell you pardner, unless we all get to actually play Trump National at 7560, we could never understand what features such a loooooong course can offer for that second shot you claim is sooooooo great at TN.  All your hyperbole using terms like Mackensiean, Rossonian, and comparisons to Prairie Dunes, ANGC, and Winged Foot are lost to those who have NEVER played such.


Seriously Mike, that was one of the most inspiring reports I've ever read here on GCA about any golf course.  I look forward to your hole by hole descriptions.  

But puleeeze tell me you can augment your account with photos for us folk that can't visualise or appreciate the difference between bombastic extravaganza and solid GCA which designs the most interesting golf with a relatively minimum level of gratuitous or disruptive incursion into nature.

Ayatolla U. Dali

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Fazio did routings and hole designs long before The Donald acquired the property.

Was the GM's company, National Fairways, or one of the other companies interested in the property ?

The golf course has an interesting history for it's relatively short life.

The long term question is:

Can those courses survive at those prices in that neighborhood ?

[Lou_Duran]

AUD,

Any relation to the somewhat famous Richard (Dick) U. Dailey in Fort Worth?

I would have taken you to ANGC, but since you like your county course in WI much better than Fazio's effort at Lake Oconee, I didn't want to diasppoint you further.  This is no knock on your tastes.  I too prefer a mess of rocky mountain oysters and chicken fried steak on a plastic platter than escargot (snails) and filet on the finest china.  Hell, I like a cheap lambrusco nearly as much as some of that expensive stuff Pitlock brought from Oregon.

BTW, when are you going to do a write-up on your county course?  Based on what you've said in the past, I fully expect the words lovely and delightful to be used repeatedly.

[Paul Richards]

Glad to hear it's better than Trump International ...

 

[Steve Lapper]

Mike Cirba,

Like Tom MacWood, you've got your facts all wrong.

Most of the design of the golf course was there before Trump was involved.

Like Easthampton, most of the routing was inherited as was much of the design.

It's amazing what going on site and actually seeing a golf course can do, versus your perception of it from the Ivory Tower.

Patrick,

You're confused me.  I was told by the GM that Fazio went through 22 routings to come up with the final product.  That same GM told me his company sold the land to Trump.  

I was onsite, just this past Wednesday, and walked and played all 18 holes.  If I live in an Ivory Tower, it's more likely built with chalk.  

If my facts are wrong, please correct me.  Who did the routing(s)?

If my very favorable impressions of the golf course are wrong, I'd like to hear a countering viewpoint.

Mike,

  Although I don't have the time right now to post the lengthy critique I have of your perspective on TN (I will later and have some experience to back it up...I've played 6 times), I will echo Pat Mucci's remarks and tell you that you were duped by the present GM (was it Ashley Cooper?)

   The course is as much the entire Fazio family as it is Tom's and most all of it was done on behalf of National Fairways...ong before the Donald even knew of its existence.
Cooper is quite adept at spinning and bs'ing his way around.

PS....you can't even begin to tell me you liked the 16th hole....a piece of dreck forced onto the land!!!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Re:  #16....255 from tips to clear pond to reach fairway, ~275+ to dogleg to even see green.  Would be a bear into the wind....even some Tour pros might not be able to clear....

[SPDB]

Pat - How is TN like Easthampton? Fazio inherited a routing from....Fazio.

Steve - How exactly was Mike "duped" by Ashley Cooper?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Paul - How exactly was Mike "duped" by Ashley Cooper?

I think you mean Steve, not Paul.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - How is TN like Easthampton? Fazio inherited a routing from....Fazio.

I believe that the new owner inherited the routing at Easthampton, and the new owner, Trump, inherited the routing at Trump National.

That seems like a similar situation to me.[/color]

[Steve Lapper]

Adam,

Great question.

I have to run but I'll try to answer quickly.  What I found most impressive was as much what he didn't do as what he did.  He only seemed to add as much to the land as was necessary to yield exciting and fun golf.

As far as uniquely creative features, what I also was stunned by was the way he blended the old and the new in a course that remained eminently challenging yet accommodated all levels of players.  That's not easy given the stated intent.

Mike,

   I was intitially taunted, then amused, by your effusively glowing praise for TN. I knew there were features there that you would like and, as I've said privately to others, the course "ain't half bad." It isn't. You are spot on in your descriptions of the rolling terrain, the successful green site selection, and the restraint and strategy on it's bunkering. I even think a few of the holes are flat out suberb (let's see if we agree when you produce your long-awaited tome on the hole-by-holes)!

   But I was flat out floored by your comparison to some of "the best things we appreciate in classic golf course architecture," as well as lines like "reminded me of a mixture of both Augusta National and Winged Foot," and "Earthmoving was generally kept to a minimum." Your "built on more undulating land could have been lifted from Prairie Dunes" really made me laugh so hard, the Oreo Ice Cream came out my nostrils!

  GET AHOLD OF YOURSELF MY GOOD MAN..Lay off this Apprentice stuff.YOU ARE IN NEED OF A STIFF DRINK!

  Let's get down to it...you were seduced! Was Melania (Mrs. Hair) on the property??? She is known to have that effect on raters. Trump and the Faz have indeed built themselves a very decent golf course and they did make it fit nicely into the surrounding rolling hills of Somerset County, but they hardly built a masterpiece or even a top 10 course in NJ. I'm not here to knock the Faz (see my ancient, but recently revived review of Hudson Nat'l), however the artificiality of some of the holes is fairly self-evident and the words sedate, low-keyed and restrained NEVER belong in the same paragraph as the Donald.... btw...if they did , he'd likely fire the Faz!

  Let's start at the beginning...#1 has a definitively pushed up green (wasn't the work of mother nature...natural ridge my arse!). #2 has an artificially pinched chute to clear with your tee ball that then has approximately 10 trees too many lining the edges of the fairway forcing certain shots left on it to circumnavigate these giant weeds. #3 has THE most pumped-up artificial green complex since Dolly Parton came out on St. Patricks Day! Other than that, the hole isn't too bad (btw...you should have seen the 3 very large Cat's that worked on that green for weeks!)

  #4 is the first of the (where did it come from H20 craters) that were dug out from the natural farmland (ps...these were originally going to be behemoth mansions lots sold for very big $$). Nahhhh...can't be man-made..must be "very natural looking hazards." #5 is a very good hole that just teases you off the tee with the other "natural-looking" water found on this part of the course. #6 is also a fine golf hole and here it appears to me that, absent the usually mandatory waterfall, the simplicity of artificially placed "neck or semi-island" green actually works very well. #7 is also okay, because it represents that a a Florida-style lake (multi-strategy uses for multiple holes) stuck in NJ can work this far north. I think the geese, swans, and ducks that summer here would agree.

   #8 makes sure that you know the Donald and the Tom know whats good for you...they have made a mid-length par 5 that makes anyone other than a pure-draw shot player lay up with a second shot sand wedge (oops!) so as to properly navigate another one of the "natural" chute cuts made from the tree(w/one big Oak in the middle) line inside protected wetlands...I hear that when the DonTom get the bluebloods up the street to host the 2094 Open there, they will be bringing those fake cell-tower trees to tighten the chutes! Other than that, it is a fun hole. #9 is a very good par 4 with little of the BS found in previous attempts at GCA malpractice.

   If you though the front was fun.....just wait! The tenth is a "very-natural" one-shotter over another "very-natural(ly irrigation) pond. Here one must get over the proximity to a way-tto-large-a-sacle Roman fountain that the members regularly toss their out-of-date Viagra pills in (like pennies into the Trevi), in hopes of borrowing a little testosterone from the Donald for landing their Melania! #11 is the first hole, (at 332 from tips) that asks you to put that 5000cc driver back in your bag and think about what you want to hit. Another one of those natural NJ "lakes" has bubbled up from the surface just in time to define the strategy here. #12 is a very good par 5 but it just wouldn't be pure fun without yet another Fazio pool to swim in. (I think that makes 7 out of the first 12 to make a "skippie" on. Mike, I guess you just weren't noticing at this point! Must have been somethingi n the Trump Ice or maybe Carolyn walked by in a pair of really sexy flat Ferragamos???

Never mind that #13 has 50 Christmas trees dotting the zones 10 paces into the rough....Mike wouldn't have noticed them if they didn't have their little Santa's with hair-mats and mirrors on top of each. Otherwise the hole is another very decent par four with an excellent and deceptive green. #14 is a doozy, and a gem. The tee shot is a doozy with yet another (detect a theme yet Mike?) chute cut that forces the weaker player to not only claw his ball through the cut (or lose it), but force them to sling it out at least 240-250 to get out from being blocked by a set of very stupid trees (not your average stupid, nope, this cluster is absolutely dumb, making the already tough dogleg downright moronic, all to a very tough and undulating green even tougher to hold. Now that's real strategy for a short par four!!

  #15 has yet even another "chute-cut" albeit a tad wider than the previous numbers. I realy do like this hole once the 2nd shot is in play as the green is almost above the horizon and visual deception of he bunkering play tricks on the player. #16 is a f....g joke, w/ aqua ala Trump (forced onto the property and better described in my previous post). #17 is nice, but it actually is missing water! Instead there is a clump of large trees forcing a fade or straight shot. Another strategically brilliant use of the American Elm. The finisher is solid and I will earnestly say, my favorite hole on the course. It is a progressively narrowing par 5 that gives a match several chances to reverse outcomes.

   As for the "tasteful" facilities, the pro shop is a homage to modern kitsch with hats from "The Apprentice" and overflowing with my choice for worst logo in golf, the very-fake royal crest & medallion of The Donald. It is gaudiness at his finest. Sedate or tasteful....not in my new class: Powers of Observation 101.

   Mike,
  Normally I admire your dispassionate and usually analytically crafted opinion, but this time, you've plain lost your marbles. Yes,it is a very decent work on some very good land, yet it is hardly the stuff to displace the PVGC's, the Plainfields, the Hollywoods, Mountain Ridges, Ridgewoods, and Somerset Hills (to say nothing of the Forsgates, Upper Montclairs and Baltusrol Uppers) of the Garden State. Top 5? Top 10? No...maybe top 15 at best. YOU'RE FIRED!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Steve,

Thanks, I enjoyed your reply...I love criticism laced with good humor!  

But, boy...between you and Patrick...sheesh, I feel like I inadvertedly touched off some nerve endings!  

Without going into much detail at the moment, let me mention a few things.  

First, the GM is the fellow you mentioned.  I don't really know him very well, met him for literally five minutes over lunch and then he stopped by while we were on the course for another minute or two.  I trust your judgement, but I still don't know exactly where he steered me wrong.  From the sounds of it, it was a Fazio routing all along, whether the property was owned by Trump or not.  I also know that his nephew?  son?  Tommy's company built it, so it's clear that it was all in the family so to speak.  

But, I don't get where you guys feel I've been horribly misled?  All I said is that I was told he worked on 22 routings before finalizing things.  If that's not the case, then it's not, but that's all he really told me besides the usual niceties.

As far as the 16th hole, what the heck tees were you guys playing?  

Yes, they built a set of "tournament tees" at over 7500 yards, but even the pro hasn't played from back there yet.  From the gold tees, which max out at 7113, the carry there is all of 213 yards, and is about 60-70 feet downhill!

The play is simply to cut as much of the corner as you dare, picking an aggressive line or not because from that distance (or from the 181 yard carry from the blue tees we played), it's possible to drive too far through the fairway into the bunkers, so clubbing down is also an option.  

I hit driver on a line about 25 yards left of the left bunker and had 125 yards to the very precipitous green.  The hole was cut on the left shelf, which was a tough but very doable approach shot, but required precise distance control to avoid coming back down the fairway 15 yards.  

It's definitely a controversial hole and the intent is to take all of the low-lying crap out of the left side and only leave the tall mature trees, so that the green can be seen from the tee.

Personally, I think that will improve the hole and also draw people into risking it too far to the left.  

Let's see, what else.....

I agree with quite a number of your hole descriptions, but you also sound to be having a bit of a love/hate affair with a number of holes.

For all of your criticism, I find it very interesting that you're willing to concede that it might be in your top 15 courses in NJ.  For such a golf rich state, that tells me that our impressions of the course might not be so far off as your pointed rhetoric might lead others to believe.  

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Dick Daley,

Even the pro hasn't played the "tournament tees" yet.  

They're simply meant for the touring professionals if they really ever do land a tournament.  Even local professional and top amateur events wouldn't be played from back there, but instead from the very reasonable 7100 yard gold tees.

I can't say I fault them for building those tees, given their intent.  But, very much like ANGC, the course can be very playable for general membership and higher handicappers depending on tee position and setup.

I think you know I'm not a guy big on flash and glitz, much less pomp and circumstance.  To have several people suggest that I've just been seduced by the 5th Avenue glamour of "The Donald" and his minions is freaking hysterical and I have to laugh out loud thinking about it.  

I think what it comes down to is that I absolutely love many of the approach shots.  Quite a number of them are the type you could sit in the fairway with a bucket of balls trying various shots and seeing the results of miscues and well-struck balls alike.  

Although Steve and you pooh-poohed my ANGC/Winged Foot/Prairie Dunes comparisons, it's really around the approaches to the greens that the comparison is apt.  And if Steve can tell me that the approach to the 3rd at Trump (including the heaving fairway) isn't very much like the 5th at PD, then I'd be surprised.

[Mike_Cirba]

Lou Duran,

It's funny that I'm thought of by some people as a Fazio-basher.  I've been very impressed by a number of his courses, and my two favorites before yesterday were World Woods Pine Barrens and Galloway National.  I also enjoyed the River Course at Kiawah we played together, but don't see it as high as you do.

I just don't like his seeming lack of respect for traditional classic courses, nor do I care much for the work he's done on them, particularly at Riviera.

I'd rather see him advance his own art.  He's a talented fellow but his vision doesn't translate well to sensitive and simpatico work on other's courses.

I also think his organization is spread too thin, and like other highly successful, large operations, the quality of each course can vary widely and is often in the hands of the capability of particular associates.

[Michael Plunkett]

I had a chance to walk the course with Trump, Fazio and Fazio's kid- I forget his name, but Tom said that his son was the one who did the day by day operations on the course. I really thought it was a wonderful course. Tom laughed often when he explained how much money all this really cost. No seed, all sod from the first day. Hand cut stone walls from a little Italian man that lived locally. My tastes are not as refined as many on this forum but I do think that this course can easliy be in the top 3-5 courses in NJ, and that is a tough top 5 to crack.


Hate to say it but Fazio did I nice job.

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael Plunkett,

Nice to hear your concurrence with my position and impressions of Trump National.

I was beginning to think that perhaps something was put into that Kool-Aid I drank.    

[Steve Lapper]

Steve,

Thanks, I enjoyed your reply...I love criticism laced with good humor!  

But, boy...between you and Patrick...sheesh, I feel like I inadvertedly touched off some nerve endings!  

Without going into much detail at the moment, let me mention a few things.  

First, the GM is the fellow you mentioned.  I don't really know him very well, met him for literally five minutes over lunch and then he stopped by while we were on the course for another minute or two.  I trust your judgement, but I still don't know exactly where he steered me wrong.  From the sounds of it, it was a Fazio routing all along, whether the property was owned by Trump or not.  I also know that his nephew?  son?  Tommy's company built it, so it's clear that it was all in the family so to speak.  

But, I don't get where you guys feel I've been horribly misled?  All I said is that I was told he worked on 22 routings before finalizing things.  If that's not the case, then it's not, but that's all he really told me besides the usual niceties.

As far as the 16th hole, what the heck tees were you guys playing?  

Yes, they built a set of "tournament tees" at over 7500 yards, but even the pro hasn't played from back there yet.  From the gold tees, which max out at 7113, the carry there is all of 213 yards, and is about 60-70 feet downhill!

The play is simply to cut as much of the corner as you dare, picking an aggressive line or not because from that distance (or from the 181 yard carry from the blue tees we played), it's possible to drive too far through the fairway into the bunkers, so clubbing down is also an option.  

I hit driver on a line about 25 yards left of the left bunker and had 125 yards to the very precipitous green.  The hole was cut on the left shelf, which was a tough but very doable approach shot, but required precise distance control to avoid coming back down the fairway 15 yards.  

It's definitely a controversial hole and the intent is to take all of the low-lying crap out of the left side and only leave the tall mature trees, so that the green can be seen from the tee.

Personally, I think that will improve the hole and also draw people into risking it too far to the left.  

Let's see, what else.....

I agree with quite a number of your hole descriptions, but you also sound to be having a bit of a love/hate affair with a number of holes.

For all of your criticism, I find it very interesting that you're willing to concede that it might be in your top 15 courses in NJ.  For such a golf rich state, that tells me that our impressions of the course might not be so far off as your pointed rhetoric might lead others to believe.  

 

Mike,

    I'm glad you found my humor enjoyable...that's the TRUE SPIRIT of discourse...and boy, am I happy someone found me funny!
 
     The GM in question (better known as the little Donald...and his wife didn't tell me that) has serious trouble with anything associated with the truth (once a Wall Street bond-salesman...well, you get the point!) His tale of 22 routings is pure bull....I spoke at length with one of the Faz's asst's when the course was being planned for Nat'l Fairways. The only real variety of iterations were created to address the evolving swap from prospective housing lots and setbacks to golf course land.....not quite as sexy as the Faz spending all that time myopically poring over his "work-of-genius."

   As for the illustrious 16th, I've played the Gold tees (438/7113 total) nearly all my times there and the hole is still f...g stupid from the other tees as well. The fact that you summoned a terrific shot (my hats off to you) doesn't mean it's a fair or a good hole...yes its downhill and the carry might be shorter, but the landing area still plays like Guadacanal on calm Pacific day.

    It is a really dumb hole forced onto the property...and the ground inside the tree line you allude to being cleaned up is protected wetland (another Bullcrap spin on "fixing it up" by someone who told you something). I'll bet they're trying to get Bradley Campbell (Head of NJ DEP) down there to play to work on that....haha...

    Were you playing "on the house" and with that very cute asst. pro they have over there (I think her name is Gina??). If so, I do now understand why you've become so delusional

     True, we do both think the course is okay and an otherwise good piece of work by the Faz......see I said it!

   But it isn't so great to merit anything above the 16th slot (in no order, PV, PCC, SH, Holly, Hid Ck, Mtn Ridge, Balt Up/Lower, Ridgewood, Essex Cty, Upper Mntclr, Forsgate, Morris Cty, Ridge,Metedcnk) and there it likely ties with Due Process and HFGC ....I am moving it to the 4th quartile..sorry, but you've convinced me!

   The abundance and pure excess of aqua and the silly & artificial chutes pinching the tee shots are too much to merit giving this any higher status in the Garden State. Remember that NJ has some of the finest classics known to the game in the US and thus anything new that is compared to them must be void of excess, stupidity and trick....TN isn't near that!

   Let me ask you one other question: Did you play it as a rater (comped by mgmt)? I DO NOT ASK TO ATTACK YOUR ETHICS or ABILITY TO REMAIN OBJECTIVE....you have fine senses of both as far as I know and can tell, instead I ask to point out the fact that you might well have been accompanied by others that can and do, at least subconsciously, influence your perceptions. Remember, you have only played it once and even the eminent Matt Ward (guardian of all that is grand in the Garden State) has said one needs a few trips to accurately judge.

   I will also handily tell you that the approach to the 3rd (while I do like that hole) is nothing like the approach to the 5th at Prairie Dunes...there is no encroaching hill on the green's left that spills the wind over and there isn't any spine that moves the balls from left-to-right on the fairway either. TN's 3rd has a green that was so significantly pushed up that other than it's pinched and false front. PD....no way...but maybe Forest Creek or the final approach shot on Butler Nat'l's #6? Are you going to tell me that it also plays like #18 at Royal Cty Down....that was one of Maxwell's inspirations for PD #5?

   You have indeed been drinking the Kool-Aid!

Mike Plunkett,

    No cookie for you either....They did do some major seeding (I wouldn't want to burst the Bull..t bubble but jut ask the other Super's who arrived to consult after Trump fired the first guy for not being able to save the grow-in from the torrential NJ rains of two years past).

    Fazio did do a nice job, but it is amazing that many of you buy-in wholesale to the crap that he and Trump spew. They are both hypesters and showmen who lack any real ability to measure themselves objectively or intelligently. Both suffer from the "This is the greatest thing" syndrome and all you suckers better believe me because I am the Donald/Thomas!!

   Tell me, both of you, what you have played in NJ's top ten that you would displace with TN??? I ask you to do that in order to validate your opinions....

    I await your response.

[Mike_Cirba]

Hey Steve,

Good post.

I'm enjoying the discussion and hope to get some more time later today to answer in full or give my own hole by hole assessments.

For now, I'll just say, since you asked about "Gina", and "raters" I may have played with, that I don't understand why you seem so incredulous by my report that you think someone brainwashed me or that no blood was flowing to my brain.  

Yes, I'd also rate it over at least half the courses you mentioned, but I'm not into naming names.  I don't want to offend members of any particular club.  Just know that I rate it very, very high.

[Mike_Cirba]

Steve,

To quickly answer your other question, in terms of Top 10 candidates in the state, I haven't played Somerset Hills (which I'm rather sure would place very highly...hell, just from looking at the aerial it appears wonderful!) , I've walked but not played Essex, and haven't played Mountain Ridge but of those who have, I've heard some mixed reports.

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