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Mike_Cirba

Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« on: July 21, 2005, 08:41:06 AM »
I just wanted to whet people's appetites for a detailed review I'll do later this evening of the new Trump National Golf Club, by Tom Fazio, in Bedminster, NJ.

For anyone who thinks that all of us here are in lockstep, get ready for a shocker.

For now, in the famous words of Tony the Tiger, "It's GRRRRREEAA....".  (ok, can't say it yet, but I'm close)  ;D

« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:19:00 AM by Mike Cirba »
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SPDB

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Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 09:52:45 AM »
It's green? On a Fazio course?
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Jerry Kluger

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Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 10:15:54 AM »
I am supposed to play it in the near future, so I am gathering from your comments that it might be very worthwhile.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2005, 10:19:29 AM »
Quote from: SPDB on July 21, 2005, 09:52:45 AM
It's green? On a Fazio course?

Sean,

Very clever!  ;D

See my correction above.
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TEPaul

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2005, 10:20:49 AM »
Good luck, MikeC, because as you obviously know there are a number of advocates on here who will believe to their dying day that "GREEAAAT" and "FAZIO" is a total oxymoron!

Not me. I think Fazio has the stuff and the talent to do anything---all he needs to find is the clients to ask him to go in a particular direction.

Tom Fazio in architecture is probably exactly like the great actor who's just been completely type-cast in his career. It's not that he can't be versatile, it's just that because of what he's done for so long he's so type-cast that the big honchos and moguls don't send him particular types of scripts.

Cary Lichenstein started a thread on minimalism today. I said that some on here may not be that aware that there're basically two types of minimalism. Fazio has probably come very close to doing one type of minimalism well---eg moving massive amounts of earth where one can't really tell what was natural and what wasn't.

I'd like to see Fazio try to do the other type of minimalism and do it really well----basically be given a great site and to figure out how to use it all without moving much of anything.

Only problem is if there ain't a whole lot of money in that type of minimalism, and Tom F is the first to say that if there ain't a lot of money in it he's not that sure he sees the point of it! ;)

Tom's even pretty good at rationalizing that type of thing too so it doesn't seem to be Gordon Geckoish ("greed is good"). You know what Tom says----he's got a lot of mouths to feed and a lot of charities to give to!  ;)

I look forward to your revue---but by tomorrow you may just be another one of those on here who "just doesn't get it!"  ;)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:21:49 AM by TEPaul »
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Kyle Harris

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 10:22:11 AM »
Mike,

Trump bought Greate Bay and changed the name?

 :P
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TEPaul

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2005, 10:39:48 AM »
"Mike,
Trump bought Greate Bay and changed the name?"

Kyle:

He did? Does that mean that Archie Struthers now works for Donald Trump? If so, that's pretty depressing.
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Kyle Harris

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2005, 10:42:12 AM »
It would be depressing to see Trump buy Greate Bay and feel the need for Fazio to redo it.

I am tempted to pick up Trump's golf book... not sure if it's the same urge that makes me watch car accidents scenes as I pass them on the freeway or because I am legitimately interested in what he has to say.

Apparently, he's not too bad to caddy for.
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TEPaul

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 10:45:58 AM »
Mike Cirba:

Has it occured to you yet that the age of "Excess" in golf and golf architecure is about to go the way of Sodom and Gommoragh, and that we are about to enter into the age of "Anti-Excess" in golf and architecture?

The new age in golf and architecture now just dawning will be referred to as "The Walden Lake" era---that is until people like us can hone it back down to "The Waldon Pond" era.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 11:01:22 AM by TEPaul »
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2005, 10:49:10 AM »
Quote from: TEPaul on July 21, 2005, 10:45:58 AM
Mike Cirba:

Has it occured to you yet that the age of "Excess" in golf and golf architecure is about to go the way of Sodom and Gommoragh, and that we are about to enter into the age of "Anti-Excess" in golf and architecture?

The new age in golf and architecture now just dawning will be referred to as "The Waldon Lake" era---that is until people like us can hone it back down to "The Waldon Pond" era.

Tom,

That irony has not escaped me.

It's sort of like Augusta National being built after the stock market crash.  

But just because something might not be universally good for the industry, or a model for others to follow doesn't mean that it's not gr....grea...(throat clearing)...ahem...greaaa...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:49:38 AM by Mike Cirba »
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Kyle Harris

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2005, 10:49:31 AM »
Tom,

Ideally it reaches "The Walden Burn" stage.  ;)
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TEPaul

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2005, 11:00:26 AM »
Kyle:

Trump is remarkable---undeniably one of America's foremost "can do" guys. Only problem with Trump is he basically doesn't have any real taste and he probalby never will.  ;)

By the way, do you think The Donald fully understands what a caricature his hair really is?
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Kyle Harris

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 11:08:05 AM »
Yes... he fully knows it.

Kitch and camp sells  :)
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TEPaul

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 11:10:24 AM »
MikeC:

Perhaps this is the point for you to fully understand the evolution of the meaning of the word "GREE"..., ahem, "GREEAA"....,AHHHEEM, "GREEAAT".

The meaning of the word great began to morph around the time what's his name carved those massive faces of the Presidents of the United States into the hills of Dakota. Before that "great" simply meant extremely large and that self-promoting super salesman of an artist, "What's His Name" helped morph the word's meaning into wonderful or wonderous.

So watch what you say in your revue, Tony the Tiger!
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2005, 11:12:14 AM »
Tom,

Are you referring to Donald.................................Ross? ;D
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TEPaul

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2005, 11:14:39 AM »
"Kitch and camp sells"

Only for a time, my friend---only for a time!

To fully understand America one must fully understand her cycles. If one gets the timing right of one into the next there's some serious flithy lucre to be made. Just ask Ralph Lipschitz. Do you know who he is?  
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TEPaul

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2005, 11:17:19 AM »
"Tom,
Are you referring to Donald.................................Ross?  :)"

No, I'm referring to Donald Trump, but somehow Tom MacWood will probably accuse me of bashing Donald Ross anyway.
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Paul Richards

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Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2005, 11:37:54 AM »
Whew!

When I read the title, I thought for SURE that this was going to be a Trump International thread ...

 ::) :-[ :P
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike_Cirba

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2005, 11:46:07 AM »
Quote from: Paul Richards on July 21, 2005, 11:37:54 AM
Whew!

When I read the title, I thought for SURE that this was going to be a Trump International thread ...

 ::) :-[ :P

Paul,

The course I'll be discussing when I get some dedicated time over the next day or two is Trump National, in Bedminster, NJ, on the former John DeLorean estate, by Tom Fazio.

Trump, DeLorean, Fazio.  

Would you expect subtle, understated taste?  ;)
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TEPaul

Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2005, 11:54:49 AM »
MikeC:

I don't believe they ever did find all that cocaine that DeLorean was accused of trafficing did they? When you go up there next why don't you put a large shovel in your golf bag or do you think perhaps that was part of the fee negotiations between Trump and Fazio and his shapers?  ;)

Trump didn't name his book "The Art of the Deal" for nothing you know.

The Donald to The Faz;

"Faz, I'm cutting your fee in half pal, because there might be gold in them thar hills."
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John Kirk

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Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2005, 12:36:01 PM »
Mike,

I'm looking forward to your review of Trump National, designed by the great Tom Fazio.

My bet is you make a compelling case for the course.

Did the bunkers have an unusual sparkle to them?  Were there lots of buried lies?
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Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2005, 01:37:04 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on July 21, 2005, 11:14:39 AM
"Kitch and camp sells"

Only for a time, my friend---only for a time!

To fully understand America one must fully understand her cycles. If one gets the timing right of one into the next there's some serious flithy lucre to be made. Just ask Ralph Lipschitz. Do you know who he is?  

Tom-

  Sort of like "going back, to go forward..." like we talked about earlier this year, correct?  
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"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Paul Richards

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Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2005, 02:08:49 PM »
Tom nailed my feelings for Fazio when he said:

>Only problem is if there ain't a whole lot of money in that type of minimalism, and Tom F is the first to say that if there ain't a lot of money in it he's not that sure he sees the point of it!

>Tom's even pretty good at rationalizing that type of thing too so it doesn't seem to be Gordon Geckoish ("greed is good"). You know what Tom says----he's got a lot of mouths to feed and a lot of charities to give to!  


I paraphrase Tom Fazio, but he did say something to the effect of "I charge a lot of money, I make a lot of money, I pay my people very well and I give a        charity."

 :-[


The topper was when he said that he didn't know or even care about classical architecture.

 :-[ :P :'(
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

SPDB

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Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2005, 02:17:12 PM »
Paul - How about a quote instead of your paraphrase.
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Paul Richards

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Re:Minimalist Zealots? Watch this space
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2005, 02:21:00 PM »
Sean

Use the search function - a lot was written about it when it occurred.  I know I posted it.

I don't have time or the inclination to go find it, but it's there.

 ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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