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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2005, 12:53:13 PM »
sorry I missed that point you made earlier Huck

and at least that 14th of yours has a real mountain behind it!...us flatlanders always give an extra point for that....
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Andy Doyle

Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2005, 01:00:12 PM »
Based on everything written here, maybe the definition is really, 'I'll know it when I see it'.

So a great par 3 is pornographic?

What about setting?  I think we can all be inspired and thrilled by the spectacular setting of some par 3's (e.g. PB #7), but is that an exclusionary criterion?  Can a golf hole be great if it is not in proximity to the ocean, mountain cliffs, waterfalls, etc?  When given a great setting, hopefully the architect has built a great hole.  Certainly a spectacular setting can cause certain holes to be spectacular whether they are or not.  I think the setting can certainly add to the "greatness" of a hole, but I also think you can have a great par 3 without a "great" setting.  Is this appearance/perception versus reality/playability?

What about visual deception?  Isn't this a 1 (or 2) trick pony?  Won't a reasonably smart golfer recognize after playing the hole a couple of times that: it plays longer/shorter than it looks; those bunkers are/aren't really in play; the green does/doesn't really slope the way it looks, etc?

I subscribe to the notion that a par 3 can be great with a more subtle appearance, that it can be a pleasure and a challenge to play repeatedly over time without necessarily having that "wow" reaction when you first see it.

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THuckaby2

Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2005, 01:14:55 PM »
sorry I missed that point you made earlier Huck

and at least that 14th of yours has a real mountain behind it!...us flatlanders always give an extra point for that....

Paul - if that's a mountain than I'm Annika Sorenstam.  There are some tall hills near my beloved ST, but that ain't one of them.  It's pretty puny.  But as I said in one post, there is a certain coolness to CA chapparal (that's the scrub-brush that covers the hills) so the setting isn't wholly awful....

TH

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2005, 01:33:23 PM »
Andy -- I'm not touching the pornography analogy any more!

Huck -- I'll compromise:  I'll only call you Annika when you visit the flat Midwest ;)
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

DMoriarty

Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2005, 01:54:04 AM »
Huh?  I agree that pins that are absolutely stupid to go at are great, but not for the reason you're talking about.  Dave, sometimes I think you just say stuff for the sake of the argument and this is one of them.  If a pin is an idiot play because the birdie putt is an absolute bitch, then every other putt on the green is an absolute bitch too because the road to the hole ALWAYS travels through that bitch of a putt area.  This means that your supposedly safe play is just a longer version of an impossible putt!  Congratulations for making the hole even HARDER by playing "safe".
[My bold]

Jeez Shivas, only a rater for a year and already you've lost your imagination.  Be careful or next will be your sense of humor.   Sometimes a safer play leaves a longer but less dangerous birdie putt.

Quote
Sucker pins are sucker pins not because the short putt even after a successful shot is so damn hard that the shot isn't worth doing, but rather because the penalties of the missed shot are so severe.  

Au contraire mon frere.  Sometimes the consequences of a missed shot are severe and the putt is more frightening than it would be from a safer spot on the green.  This is especially so when the difficulty of the shot forces the golfer to end up on the up side of a fast sloping green.  

Did you happen to catch any of the US Open?  It seemed there were many locations where the golfer was better off further away with a good angle from which to putt, rather than risking trouble or a tough putt by trying to get it close.  

Quote
In other words, if a pin is tucked in place where the green slopes so hard that even a shot stuffed to 4 feet is lucky to walk away with 3, then the poor slob who plays to the fat side of the green is fricking guaranteed a 4 because his first putt is going to get up near the hole and then take off like a scalded cat.  Basically, what you're describing is a situation where YOU'D BETTER fricking go at the flag because that's your only chance!  Maybe I"m misunderstanding you....gimme an example of a sucker pin position that's a sucker pin position not becasue the penalty for the missed shot is severe, but rather, because the penalty for even a successful shot is severe enough to make the player not hit the shot.  That makes no sense to me.

Well I am sure such holes exist--  Any pin set on an increasing slope, where a ball hit close will most likely have to be above the hole because the increasing slope below the hole would likely carry the ball far away.  It is easier to hold a slope putting up the slope than down it--  That inertia thing, I think.  Seems like there would be alot of these pins at NGLA.

But I was thinking of a hole that has a somewhat severe potential penalty from the tee and has a very severe putt-- a possible birdie, but a possible three putt as well.  

Rustic Canyon No. 8: While I like it, I'll stay out of the "great" par three nominations.  I mention it because I am familiar enough with it to suspect that it does fit my description.  Pictured with the subject left pin (from Ran's review) . . . .  

The left plateau is small, a miss short finds what may be the most difficult bunker on the course, left and long are down the hill with a pitch which will feed well away from the pin.  A miss even slightly right will feed down the slope into the middle bowl of the green.  

The golfer can get the ball onto the left plateau, but there isnt much room to get it on the plateau and short of the pin.  So most balls end up above the pin, especially if the pin is in the first 1/3 of this small area.  The problem is that the slope from back to front and a bit of side slope toward the front middle make it a very difficult putt from past the pin, and  making a three putt possible whenever the golfer does anything but lag, no matter how short the putt.  

A safer tee shot is more toward the middle (or left center) and just on the green.   This leaves a putt that is somewhat against the fall line-- A difficult putt to make but definitely possible to leave close enough (and below) for the par.   Hitting it just onto the middle of the green brings the risk of hitting it short, but the Beast Bunker guards the left, not the middle.  

Personally, if I absolutely needed a par on this hole and had my choice between chipping from just short/middle vs. putting from above a hole on the left plateau, I'd think I'd take the chip option, even though I am a much better putter than chipper (this is not saying much I know.)  

In fact, Dave, I'll give you an example of a dynamite little par 3 that a lot of GW guys played last fall -- #12 at Beverly, which plays about 140 or so. . . .

Frankly, that hole sounds stupid to me, at least with that pin.  You must have been playing with raters, a real golfers would have made you keep putting.  
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 01:54:41 AM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2005, 12:33:26 PM »
Dave, you forget that I played this hole.

No, I picked it because I knew you had seen it.  What I forgot was that you are a rater now, so once you have had once fleeting glance at a hole, you think you know everything there is to know about it.  A few things you think you know about this hole, but dont:
--  You think you know that a good golfer can easily spin and back up a ball on this level to below the hole while still keeping on this level.
--  You think you know that the putt from above this hole is "slightly downhill" (as opposed to one of the fastest putts on the course) and easy for many good putters.
--  You think you know what goes through the mind of the golfer who has played this hole location dozens of times, as opposed to once.

But that is the mind of the modern golfer/ rater;  see it once and think you know it forever.  

Speaking of the mind of the modern golfer; how about that one-dimensionality?    Your golfer is on the tee and he either considers the difficulty of the shot ('trouble left, right, short, etc.') or he thinks about how difficult a put he has once he is on.   Not both.   Same as your initial point, one shot at a time: hit a good shot from the tee and get an easy birdie.
Great holes make the golfer think ahead:  "if a pull off this shot, what does it get me? am I better off?"  
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 12:50:42 PM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2005, 12:54:11 PM »
Shivas, did you ever stop to think how a golfer can say so much about a hole he has seen little?

Let's let it go, this is a good thread, and not about this one tiny issue . . .

Mike_Cirba

Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2005, 11:11:16 PM »
I've thought about this for a long time and I've come to the conclusion that I have a bias.

In fact, thinking about the par threes that have stuck in my mind as "great" over the years, they almost all share the same characteristic...they are partially blind.

In most cases, one can only see the flagstick, and not really the precise location on the green.  I feel that par threes are generally the perfect place for this type of hole because one has a perfect lie, usually a specific yardage, yet the fear and uncertainty created by a visually vague target creates hesitation.  Couple that with the presence of fearsome looking hazards and/or rough terrain and you have the foundation of a great par three of any length.

Some come to mind that will hopefully help illustrate my point...

11 Shinnecock
11 Hidden Creek
11 Pac Dunes
10 Friars Head
9 & 14 Crystal Downs (as opposed to 11 which I'm convinced is unputtable)
3 & 13 Merion
15 Timber Point
15 North Berwick
3 Philmont North
15 Philadelphia Country Club
14 Rolling Green
13 Sand Hills
4 Riviera

Another theme I'm partial to is the ultra-long par three that requires a driver or three wood for most folks to a super large green.  

I'm thinking holes like;

17 Legends Heathland

(It occurs to me that there aren't enough of this type of hole being built)

Finally, cute, short par threes under 140 yards to VERY exacting greens get me every time.  I'm thinking 4 at Gulph Mills, the one at Manufacturers, 13 Merion, 11 Applebrook, 8 Rustic Canyon.

No pun intended, but there is a shortage of these holes nationwide.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2005, 11:14:01 PM »
a great post, Mike
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike_Cirba

Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2005, 11:33:07 PM »
Thanks, Paul.

Just to continue a few more thoughts.

5 at Pine Valley probably qualifies in both of my first two categories and 10 at PV in the first and third categories (although it's not really semi-blind, you don't want to see what's up there anyway ;) )

Another type that make for great par threes are when the surrounding terrain can be used as a ground game option on a downhill or flattish hole.  #4 at NGLA, #11 at Los Angeles Country Club, #3 at Pine Valley (although you have to hit the green and then use the green slope), #17 Merion (ditto) all sort of exemplify the point.

Finally, I'm not that big a fan of multi-tiered greens where one has to land on the correct quadrant to have a reasonable chance at par.  I'm thinking of, say 15 at Rustic Canyon and about 50000 other holes built in the past 40 years.  

They are simply too rote, easy to build, and unimaginative.

Nathan Cashwell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2005, 12:12:20 AM »
Ross was a big fan of challenging par 3's (one shotters) because it was the only type of hole where each player has an equal shot at the green from the same spot.  One type he used quite a bit was what we call a "volcano green".  Where he forms a push up green, anywhere from a few feet to 10+ feet above native grade depending on the site, and usually cuts a couple of bunkers into the fill pad to create those strategic corner and edge hole locations.  Some such holes that come to mind are:

#6 - Roaring Gap
#17 - Mimosa Hills
Original #10 - Cape Fear
#15 - Jefferson Lakeside
#14 at The Ocean Course is a similar green

Very similar to MacDonald/Raynor and the redans, some are good, some aren't so good.  But it is a strategic and challenging style of par 3 and can many times be a make or break hole in a match.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2005, 04:44:43 AM »
I like Jim Thompson's idea of a different club nearly always being required from the tee.  I find it a marvelous notion to hit 9 iron one day and 3 wood the next.  I have not heard mention of the shelf green.  I have always been partial to these holes though they are fairly rare.  As a homer, I would certainly nominate #11 at Pennard.  
The hole measures approximately 185 slightly uphill (or is this an illusion?) to a sliver of a shelf which is about 10 yards deep and 20 yards wide.  Club selection is critical and varies dramatically depending on conditions.  The shot is clearly daunting without any real trouble to be found.  A four should be a no-brainer, but a three requires nothing less than perhaps one's best strike of the day or a fantastic up and down.  There is a steep falloff in the front if the approach comes up short.  There is a bit of a backwall which may kick the ball back to the green, but if it doesn't, the player is faced with a very nasty downhill pitch.  There is the possiblity of kicking the ball in from the left if the wind is favorable, but this is no easy task.  True, #11 is a demanding shot (sometimes too much so if there is a decent tailwind), but bliss when pulled off.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chris Burgard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #87 on: July 15, 2005, 03:27:07 PM »

I hated to see such a fine thread fall by the wayside.

For longer par 3s (190-240 yards), I definately prefer holes that look harder than they play. I will avoid using the F-word (Fair), but I feel that a well struck shot of this length should be rewarded, or in the very least not penalized.

For shorter holes make them as hard as possible. If one has a 155 yards or less and a perfect lie there should be no complaints about a hole's difficulty. Much like short par 4s, I truly appreciate a short but difficult par 3.

Further, there has not been enough talk about wind. This may be such a given that it is not discussed here, but the prevailing wind should threaten to bring the hazard(s) into play.


Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Great Par Three?
« Reply #88 on: July 15, 2005, 11:01:06 PM »
I liked shivas definition at first but felt it was not allowing for the variety of par 3 holes I find most appealing. I treasure a great short. I has ass tightening consequeses for a miss but birdie if the well hot shot is struck. I like the different wind directions especially on the two medium length ones. I like a nice 3 wood or driver to a large green. I like the shivas definition of serious issues on one side if you miss. I love an Eden or Redan as a medium. I find the so called down hill hole to be an underachiever more often than not. I love 11 TOC in very special ways,15 Turnberry 8 Troon as long as one is one an Open run put in 16 Carnoustee I hate to sound MacDonaldish but that theme has never been broke so why mess with it. Tom I hope some creative type throws a great idea in here but i do love the Mac approach to par 3's.