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NAF

CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« on: July 13, 2005, 01:20:13 PM »
CC of Waterbury   www.ccwaterbury.com

I'm hoping to see this club shortly as many in my new state of Connecticut have recommended it as a terrific course.  The website has a tremendous amount of detail about the course and scans of Ross' notes (Tom Macwood rejoice!).. This hole caught my attention as they liken it to the 14th at Shinny.





The Connecticut St. Amateur is going to be played here Aug 1-3.  I know they have cut trees down and redone bunkers in the last few years, this might be the hidden gem in Connecticut..
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 07:33:52 AM by NAF »

Michael Moore

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Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2005, 01:23:10 PM »
Which course is this?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

NAF

Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2005, 01:24:14 PM »
CC Waterbury

Brad Klein

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Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2005, 01:24:29 PM »
Correct me, please, I first thought it was the 10th but now see it's the 7th, at CC of Waterbury, but the photo does not look like what I remember at all. You know, they have removed a few (!) trees there lately, and I'm wondering if that photo is pre- or post-tree management.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 01:30:57 PM by Brad Klein »

NAF

Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2005, 01:27:07 PM »
Brad, this is the 10th..



The Thom's Elbow hole is the 7th..

I think this is pre trees down...

Neil Regan

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Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2005, 01:12:51 AM »
This thread should not drop so quickly !

The club's website has the Ross plans for each hole that he revised, and a note from him regarding the work. It seems from my quick look that Ross did not change the "Thom's Elbow" hole.


For example:



This is great material for serious discussion.

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

T_MacWood

Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2005, 07:06:44 AM »
I agree it is great material. I'm curious who designed the existing course. It must have been a hell of project...$100,000 sounds like a lot of money.

Ross wanted Irving Johnson to produce 10 general plans, I would guess the general plans would be the large scale map of the course, I wonder if he had a way of easily preproducing those plans...lithograph?

NAF

Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2005, 07:28:28 AM »
Tom-

Dr. Childs and I are going to get to Waterbury soon and hopefully meet up with the Super so I can get a lot of historical detail. Obviously the club is very cognizant of their history.

What really interests me about Waterbury is the likeness it has to my home club Alpine CC.

The similarities are:

1) Built out of ROCK--tons of granite had to be removed at both places
2) The cost.. About 100k each at a similar time in history
3) Lack of fairway bunkers-- Both courses have little

I can't wait to see Waterbury..

NAF

Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2005, 07:31:16 AM »
Arthur Fenn-
Seems he could have designed the Thom's Elbow esque hole before Flynn did!  I guess he is responsible for #5-7 and 12,13 but it is unclear if the first course is in the same locale as the current one..

While Donald Ross has achieved widespread recognition for his contributions to golf, relatively few golfers recognize the name of Arthur Harris Fenn.  Born in Waterbury in 1857, Fenn is considered the first American-born professional golfer and is largely responsible for the early history of the game in Waterbury.

An article in Connecticut Golf (2001) by Bob Labbance provided a summary of Fenn and his accomplishments.  The archives of the Waterbury Republican-American also provide interesting details of both Fenn and the birth of golf in the city prior to the turn of the 20th century.  In his day, Fenn was considered a great athlete — baseball, roller skating, roller polo, bowling, bicycling, tennis, and billiards.  In 1893, Fenn tried his hand at the 'new' game of golf.  By the spring of 1895, he was a scratch golfer and considered good enough to win a national championship.

In 1895, Fenn designed Waterbury's first golf course at the old circus grounds, known as the West End Golf Links.  In 1896, Fenn created a course for the Poland Spring Hotel, a resort in Maine with roots dating back to 1790. His affiliation with Poland Springs would continue for more than 30 years.  In 1897, Fenn won the Lenox Cup (Lenox MA) and was awarded a silver cup by spectator and U.S. President William McKinley.  He turned pro in 1898 and accepted a winter teaching position at Palm Beach, a position he held for 27 years.  In 1918, at the age of 61, Arthur Fenn won the first Open Championship hosted by the Maine State Golf Association.  The newspapers of the day detail an exciting victory, capping a 25-year career of competitive golf.  Fenn died in 1925 and many of his papers, scrapbooks, and his Lenox Cup are on display at the USGA Museum in Far Hills, NJ.  

 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 07:49:28 AM by NAF »

RJ_Daley

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Re:A Ross-esque version of Thom's Elbow at Shinny
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2005, 07:34:42 AM »
Wow, that is one heck of a fine web site CCW has.  Lots of little nuggets of info in Ross notes.  I thought it an interesting comment on #2 green

Quote
Green site slopes to left 6 ft and 5 L-front
Any kind of green may be built as no character in material surface

He also speaks of creating more visibility in several places.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim Sweeney

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Re:CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2005, 09:39:15 AM »
NAF:

Waterbury is a gem, but not hidden. It was for years on everybody's list of state top 5, and still in most top 10s. I'm a homer, but I would rate it pretty high in the state and among the top in preserved Ross designs I have played. It has been discussed here before at some length.

I grew up playing Waterbury. The last time I was there was probably three years ago, pre-tree removal. It looks to me like the pictures on in this thread are from that period.

Donald Ross is the architect, not Fenn, Though Fenn was influential in the club's beginning and move to Oronoke Road, the course is Ross through and through. The only difference from Ross's original routing is #4, which he had designed to dogleg right between three green and five tee. However, the club could not acquire the land and the hole was straightened out. This was all decided before the hole was built.

According to Dr. Klein's book "Remembering Donald Ross," in addition to original drawings of the plans, Ross is documented to have been on site for design and construction. There are a minoirity of Ross courses that can so completely document his involvement.

One of the nice aspects of the routing is that one can enjoy a four, nine, twelve, or eighteen hole round without undertaking any long walks from green to tee. As junior golfers, we were required to demonstrate increasing skill as well as golf course etiquette before we were allowed to advance from four to nine to twelve to eighteen holes.

The golf professional is Thomas Gleaton. The web site was put together by a member whose name I will not mention but If you ask Gleaton he may introduce you if the member is around. The guy is a wealth of information.

Also, the Professional Emeritus, Floyd Gensler, is often around and you may get to talk to him. Floyd started there as a caddie. HE was my first instructor.

BTW, Stephen Kay did the bunker work. Recent additions have included a driving range and some new back tees, though I believe the total yardage is still around 6,400, par 69.


"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

NAF

Re:CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2005, 09:45:53 AM »
Jim- glad you are a HOMER.. what are you fav holes there so I know what to look for?  Is the 7th hole that I featured one of the best?

Steve Curry

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Re:CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2005, 09:51:30 AM »
Noel,

What course did Fenn play in Lenox?  There is today a croquet club in Lenox center that had, so I hear a very good golf course many years ago??

I heard from someone that the bunkers at WCC had been filled substantially??

Cheers,
Steve

SPDB

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Re:CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2005, 09:59:20 AM »
NAFFER -

Now that you've made your home on the correct side of NYC, you'll find that as you explore northward you will find to varying degrees very few courses that aren't built out of/on rock. There's a reason why stonewalls traverse most of the New England landscape - the farmers had to put those rocks somewhere when they prepared the fields for planting.

As you make your forays into New Eng. we must be in touch to explore the region's finest.

NAF

Re:CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2005, 10:10:38 AM »
Steve, I don't know on Fenn. I took that blurb from the website..  If I recall Bob Labbance had an accident, has he recovered?  Perhaps he knows.

SPDB, yes the correct side of the Hudson indeed!  But my golf club is on the wrong one!

Jim Sweeney

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Re:CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2005, 10:26:33 AM »
NAF:

1,2, and 3 are a very strong opening trio. 1 is a medium length 4 from an elevated tee hard by the pro shop, a good "warm up" hole. 2 is a longish 4 to an elevated green; the best shot may be a long run up if conditions are right. 3 is a long 3 downhill to a properly guarded green.

6 is often cited as an exemplary short 4 and I agree. Very strategic. Go for it, lay up short or long, pitch or run up- your choice.

7 is not a favorite, but more due to condition than design. The low area in front of the green retains water and the woodsy environment makes growing grass difficult. Interesting tee shot, though. Challenge the right side at your own risk.

8 is a great short 3 that doesn't get nearly the respect it deserves, IMO.

13 is my favorite, as it is for many. A shortish 4. Beautiful, strategic. Four wood and nine iron, and be happy with your par. Terrific Ross green. Get greedy and 6 is well within your grasp.

16 is another solid, strategic 4, especially if they have cleared the white pines on the left side, bringing the mounding back into play.

Have a great day there.

JES
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

T_MacWood

Re:CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2005, 06:54:22 PM »
Based upon Ross's notes to Irving Johnson it sounds like he incorporated holes from the existing course. Any idea how many and which holes?

wsmorrison

Re:CC of Waterbury.. Ross, Arthur Fenn..
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2005, 07:55:21 PM »
Noel,

Thankfully, Bob Labbance is on a long road to recovery.  He nearly died (he fell of a bridge, broke his neck and nearly drowned) and in fact was paralyzed for quite some time.  He is getting better (may not fully recover)and seems to speak of recovery in terms of how far he is able to drive a golf ball.  Right now he's hitting it about 180 yards.  

I spoke to him today, he's in Philadelphia doing a history of Philmont Country Club and I am trying to help out with Flynn and Philmont North.  He's come across some interesting materials that might be a bit surprising to the folks at Philmont.  

We were going to have dinner this evening, but things came up.  

He's also working on a study of Wayne Stiles and I know Tom Paul is helping him with work Stiles did at Gulph Mills GC.

Let me know if you want to contact him and I'll pass along contact info.

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