[Jonathan Davison]

Does anyone know anything about Charles Mackenzie?
What courses did he design?

An interesting story
A golf course near my home was redesigned by one of the Mackenzie brothers in 1914. What is interesting is that the club abandoned the redesigned holes in 1927???
Although the club still own the land today, every hole is still easy to identify, but they can not be managed due to environmental restrictions, ie SSSI.
Now if these holes are A Mackenzie what a find, six lost original Mackenzie holes.
Although very sad if the club can no longer do anything about them.

[Tom_Doak]

Charles A. MacKenzie was Alister's younger brother.  He was president of the British Golf Course Constructors firm which carried out most of Alister's work in the UK and Ireland after the Great War.  

The brothers had a falling out in 1926 (Charles' wife and Alister's first wife were good friends, and the younger couple sided with Alister's wife in the split).  After that, Alister started working internationally, and Charles did some design work in the UK.

Charles' design work was not too well documented, and there is confusion as to which projects he designed, because clubs today prefer to remember his more famous brother as being involved somehow.  All you really need to know is the date of construction ... if it's in England after 1926, it's Charles's work; if it's before 1926, Alister was the designer, possibly with Charles making some contribution (but likely not much of one).

What is the course with the lost MacKenzie holes?

And are you positive they couldn't be managed today?  Some golf courses coexist peacefully with SSSI.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, It sounds as if its the Ferryhills Course for Dumfermline.  I troted out there in 1996, and many of the holes are in fact still there, all overgrown. Only problem it looked as if there was a water reclaimation plant on the property, and I'm not certain if it exists on any former golf holes or not. It's right near the Firth of Forth bridge.

[David Sneddon]

Tom, It sounds as if its the Ferryhills Course for Dumfermline.  I troted out there in 1996, and many of the holes are in fact still there, all overgrown. Only problem it looked as if there was a water reclaimation plant on the property, and I'm not certain if it exists on any former golf holes or not. It's right near the Firth of Forth bridge.

Tommy
Can you be a bit more specific as to location near Dunfermline??  I was born and raised there, but have never heard of this course.

Thanks

[Jonathan Davison]

The golf club is in the north of England South Shields.
The SSSI is calecareous grasslands which few exist today. I am not sure if the club could afford to re instate them or want to, but they are some really nice golf holes.
Very strategic - I am currently working on some photo-montages of how the holes would look today, which I hope to present to the club.
What I was confused with was the club described the architect as Dr C A Mackenzie?
It is such an interesting story because I have walked the site for years and thought I could see a number of golf holes, but the wife said I could see golf holes in my Sunday roast if I looked hard enough.

[ForkaB]

Tom, It sounds as if its the Ferryhills Course for Dumfermline.  I troted out there in 1996, and many of the holes are in fact still there, all overgrown. Only problem it looked as if there was a water reclaimation plant on the property, and I'm not certain if it exists on any former golf holes or not. It's right near the Firth of Forth bridge.

Tommy
Can you be a bit more specific as to location near Dunfermline??  I was born and raised there, but have never heard of this course.

Thanks

David

The course Tommy referred to was the 2nd site of the Dunferline Golf Club (The first was at Fod, near Halbeath; the 3rd--designed by Braid, I think--was on the road to Kincardine (you can still see some old green sites to the left as you go out of town); and the 4th and preent one is at Pitfirrane, as you probably know).  The Ferry Hills site essentially extended across where the approach to the Forth Road Bridge now stands.  You can still see a green site or two if you look out to the left (east) as you take the train into Edinburgh.  The course went to the west towards Rosyth (playing over the train tunnel leading to the Forth Bridge) towards the naval base.  I think the course was abandoned after land had been taken for expansion of the base in WWI.  What Tommy refers to as a water plant may well be fuel bunkers.

PS--got this from a reading of the DGC club hisotry a few years ago.
PPS-played DFC a few weeks ago in an Open with one of the Fotheringham's of your old club, Canmore.

[David Sneddon]

Thanks Rich - I never had an inkling about it at all.  Funny how you have to travel 3500 miles from home to find these things out.

You are right about the fuel bunkers - they were part of HM Dockyard, Rosyth.

IIRC, Gary Fotheringham developed into quite a golfer, he is quite a bit younger than I am, so I didn't know him personally.

[Andy Levett]

Pannal, Fulford and Scarcroft are all Major Charles MacKenzie's. I don't know Scarcroft and remember little about a visit to Fulford 20 years ago but Pannal's good (revision of Sandy Herd's 1906 original). Similar in style and quality to Alistair's Yorkshire courses, many of them built by Charles.

One difference is the gradual, subtle way a significant elevation change is handled over the course of the first six  holes, with no  descent to the lower level until the 18th. Alistair was quite happy to march you up to the top of the hill like the grand old Duke of York then straight back down again.

[Marty Bonnar]

...an interesting vision of 'Golden Age' litigation for us all. Just goes to show that Contractual negotiations were ever 'difficult'...

From the history of Pitreavie golf Club. DP stands for Dunfermline Press - the local paper.







FBD.

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