[wsmorrison]

At what point and time?  Given that Cherry Hills record of national championships include:

1938 USGA Open Championship
1941 PGA Championship
1960 USGA Open Championship
1976 USGA Senior Amateur
1978 USGA Open Championship
1983 USGA Mid-Amateur Championship
1985 PGA Championship
1990 USGA Amateur Championship
1993 USGA Senior Open Championship
1993 USGA Senior Open Championship
2005 USGA Women’s Open Championship

I know that Cherry Hills is better known from 1939 onwards; for the championships rather than architectural merit.

If you refer to the time between opening and the first national tournament at Cherry Hills in 1938, I'm not sure which was more well known nationally.  Why?  The only interest I can fathom is that notariety brings work.  Outside of Denver CC and Cherry Hills, what work did Flynn do there or west of there?  In fact between Denver and Ohio, Flynn only did 2 courses, Mill Road Farm and the redesign of Glen View Club.  Maybe he didn't want to work out west or maybe he wasn't asked.  Who knows?  Flynn's work at Lancaster, Merion and Pine Valley certainly helped Flynn with his reputation and course work in eastern Pennsylvania.

Why not consider the redesign of Atlantic City CC and Kittansett, built the same year as Cherry Hills?  And Yorktown CC also.  Yorktown seemed to get a lot of press in the middle Atlantic states for the use of battlefield and the scale of the hotel/club project.  If you ask me, Kittansett was much less known nationally than either Yorktown, Cherry Hills or Lancaster.  Yet it can be argued that, although of a different style, it is as good or better a design than any of these.  The redesign (routing mostly intact) at Atlantic City CC was well received as well among the old guard members and golfers in the Philadelphia district.

How do you compare and contrast Cherry Hills with Lancaster, Kittansett, Yorktown and Atlantic City?  Other than job networking, why are you interested in publicity and exposure?

[T_MacWood]

"At what point and time?"

In the early stages of Flynn's career.

What about Cascades? Which of his early designs recieved the most national publicity?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mark-

 Thank you for the reply!  

 DRB
 

[wsmorrison]

How could I forget the Cascades?  I'm banished to the corner with a dunce cap for that.  Of course you're right about that one too.  I don't know how to measure national publicity.  By the number of citations in national magazines or the largest newspapers of the day?  

If it is by national championships, and ignoring Merion, it is not clear.  Early in Flynn's career there wasn't much going on nationally on his courses except TCC in Brookline which is a little more than 1/2 Flynn.  Prior to his death, you might say Cascades and Cherry Hills.

I still think his very early work at Lancaster was his breakthrough course because along with work at Pine Valley (a lot of the agronomics and a bit architectural) and Merion (architectural) he was able to dominate the Philadelphia area.  He made more changes to that course over the years than any other, but since then it has withstood the test of time very well.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
On one of my trips back out there, maybe you can tag along.  As you know, you have to see these courses in person to really appreciate them.  

Cherry Hills reeks of golf history.  It was the first course to hold the U.S. Open west of the Mississippi.  By hosting the Women’s Open, Cherry Hills joins Winged Foot and Hazeltine National as the only courses to have hosted the U.S. Open, U.S. Senior Open, U.S. Amateur and U.S. Women’s Open.

Doug,
The course is very green and lush.  However, that doesn't necessarily have to mean soft.  Ideally Mike would love to have it firmer and faster but if it was, the women would have no chance with the rough up.  It actually was that way the weekend before the championship and a few of my friends played it.  One is a +3 handicap and he said he was lucky to shoot 75 playing great from the Open tee boxes.  When the USGA saw it, that is when they told Mike to lock up the rollers, start watering and cut the rough  

Wait till Sunday if it doesn't rain anymore and Mike gets his way.

Note:  As you can tell from some of the early scores today, the USGA is being careful not to embarass the field.  I think that's good as there is no need to beat up the women too bad.  The course is plenty tough but like most good designs can produce a good score if play is superb!
Mark

[wsmorrison]

That would be a pleasure, Mark.  When you get back, we'll get together and arrange a trip west.  I'd like to see Denver CC and maybe stop in Chicago for the Walker Cup if that is convenient.  If it needs to before or after, so be it.  I definitely want to get together.  I've made some friends out there through the Flynn Invitational and it would be great to walk the course with you and we have drinks/play golf with them.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

You need to play more of the more recent additions to the Colorado scene.

Frankly, Cherry Hills, with all due respect, gets big time brownie points because of the "tradition" argument.

C'mon Tom -- let's not go soft on one of your best comments from "Confidential Guide."

As an FYI -- the Norman layout at Red Sky Ranch is better than Cherry Hills -- frankly I would also take Lakota Canyon Ranch and Bear Dance as well. Each of them is public.

When Digest lists Cherry Hills as #21 in the nation and at the same time have it soooooooooooo close to the super star status of Flynn's Shinnecock Hills then I know something is seriously amiss.

I salute Mark F's efforts with CH but the course is more about celebrating the feats of yesteryear.

Tom -- one last thing -- you are automatically assuming
that each Flynn course is worthy of some sort of national acclaim -- Cherry Hills has his name attached to it as designer but the course is far from being a home run design when compared to the others -- particularly those in the greater Phillie suburbs.

One other thing -- the quality of the rest of Colorado golf has risen greatly in the last several years and likely will continue --I believe there is a new Doak course opening in the very near future. Am I not correct?

[Mark_Fine]

Sorry Matt, you're quite wrong!  Wait till you see the master plan    The original design was world class!!!  This course is not a relic of the past.  It's will once again be the real deal and is not too bad right now.  

Doug,
You wanted firmer and faster.  It's coming!  I'm anxious to speak with Mike and see what they make (try to make) him do tonight!  I'm sure he is hiding the hoses  

Got to run!
Mark

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

How many of those courses you keep promoting are actually better than Manufacturers, Rolling Green, Spring Mill, Lancaster or Huntingdon Valley?  That's what I was asking.

[wsmorrison]

"Tom D:

You need to play more of the more recent additions to the Colorado scene."

"Matt:

How many of those courses you keep promoting are actually better than Manufacturers, Rolling Green, Spring Mill, Lancaster or Huntingdon Valley?  That's what I was asking."

Tom,

Matt seems to be promoting himself and the ever-growing list of courses he's seen and others must see in order to be able to make judgemens as qualified as his  

Now Matt, please answer Tom's question about which Colorado courses are better than MGCC, RGGC, PCC's Spring Mill, Lancaster and Huntingdon Valley.  While you're at it, add Lehigh and Atlantic City CC (I highly regard Tom Doak's work there--big improvement).  

Now I'm sure there are a number better than Bala, Doylestown, Harrisburg, Springdale, Green Valley and Philmont, but please address Tom's question.

"Tom -- one last thing -- you are automatically assuming
that each Flynn course is worthy of some sort of national acclaim -- Cherry Hills has his name attached to it as designer but the course is far from being a home run design when compared to the others -- particularly those in the greater Phillie suburbs."

Again, the baseball team is the Phillies (they once again stink--though I'm going tomorrow hoping they avoid a sweep by the Red Sox) and the city is Philly.  But you are from North Jersey so you only get to refer to it as Philadelphia    

And since when is a course attached to Flynn given any general accolades?  I didn't hear any announcers mention his name once during last year's US Open.  I did hear him mentioned as designer of CHCC today and they threw in the Shinnecock Hills attribution as well.  Only a year too late  

[wsmorrison]

Bill V,

Look past what's on the ground today and consider the original designs.  If you're nice, maybe Mark will show you the drawings and early photographs    You may have a different idea.

I couldn't tell by watching TV what the greens are like, but I think Mark said 16/18 are Flynn.  I watched a 20-foot putt break 8 feet.  That slope off the edge sure reminded me of Flynn.  What little I saw seemed liked Flynn's complexities of slopes rather than rolling contours.  Flynn's greens are not all like potato chips.  I know, your neck of the woods is the potato chip capital of the world, but not all Flynn greens look like Utz, Herr's or Wise goodies.

[Chris Holcombe]

This looks like as good a place as any to dip my toes in the water. I watched a bit of the Open and did not see anyone miss the 18th fairway. All the girls seemed to hit a draw that ran down the slope to the left side of the fairway. We know the scoring difficulty, imagine the avg. score if a bunch were approaching out of the rough.  How much further back are the tee boxes when the hole plays as a par 5?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Wayne-

  From the camera angle, 18 seemed like a skyline green.  This may or may not be true in person.  But the way the last 200 or so yards looked from the TV, the angles and such, reminded me a lot of pictures I've seen on here of other Flynns.

Mark, Bill M.D., is this true in person?  I don't want to get invited to the diner.  

[Mark_Fine]

I don't have too much time to comment on some of the points raised right now but I will say this - when the course is restored, it has the potential to be one of the top four or five Flynn courses I have seen and I have seen most of his designs.  Look at it another way, it would stand out in the Philly area if it were back here.  Right now it is behind some of the other Flynn courses mentioned but it will jump back ahead of them in my book (including ahead of Lehigh) when the restoration is completed.  

Remember BillV - Accuracy, Carry and Length in that order was what Flynn was all about.  You will once again have to think your way around that golf course very similar to what you have to do at Merion.  Some of the changes will be very dramatic to the playing character of the design.  We are not just talking improved asthetics.  We are talking design strategy and restored risk, temptation and challenge!  The course will also pick up added yardage and the tips will approach 7500 yards.  Will it host another Men's US Open; I don't think so.  But then again, how many of Flynn's other top designs outside of Shinnecock Hills could do so without screwing them up.  Not many that I can think of.  

One day it would be fun to get a group together and go through the research and the evolution of the design and explain the restoration.  I do believe the club will go through with it as so many members there now realize just how good their golf course could be.  They know the course is resting on its laurels but the potential for greatness is right in front of them and doesn't require a renovation or redesign! Their architect is William Flynn and its just a matter of restoring his design.  

Got to go and see if Mike's holding off on the water.  We all want firm and fast tomorrow right  
Mark

[T_MacWood]

I've never understood why Cherry Hills was so easily dissed. Great terrain, interesting use of a stream and number of standout golf holes. I'm one who would like to see the original bunkering scheme restored. I'm glad to see the course still has the 'dirty sand' bunkers--very cool IMO.

[wsmorrison]

"But then again, how many of Flynn's other top designs outside of Shinnecock Hills could do so without screwing them up.  Not many that I can think of."

Interesting point, Mark.  Of the NLE courses, Mill Road Farm and Boca Raton South could easily hold US Opens.  Of existing courses,  Huntingdon Valley CC could hold one today, tomorrow, next week or whenever.  It has the length and difficulty to do so and the maintenance practices, although not quite where Linc would like them, are superb.  I think Kittansett with a bit of yardage added could make an interesting national championship course.  Bob Jones thought it should be on the permanent rotation of Walker Cup sites.  It is better suited to a match play format, but could hold anything if the conditions were right (firm, fast and windy).  No room for corporate clutter though and they'd never want one.  Lancaster is close, but doesn't quite have the necessary length.  That would make a nice Amateur or Women's Open site though!  Let's see how Philadelphia Country Club does in the men's amateur, that too  might not be US Open material but it is close and would be a nice venue for a number of national championships.  Rolling Green would make a fine junior championship course, senior's open or women's open but they vowed never to return.  But you are right, Shinnecock is about it...but what a course.  I hope next time the tides have changed and PJ Boatright's approach to set up is resurrected and they leave fairway widths alone and leave mowing and watering up to the guys that know the course and weather best.  

Flynn advocated the USGA sponsoring 6 or so geographically diverse courses to hold US Opens so classic courses wouldn't need to be altered.  These USGA courses would do turf experiments and be built by various architects, with elasticity being designed in.  It wasn't a bad idea and would keep the usual suspects off the great old guard courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Your original point on Cherry Hills in Confidential Guide would be that the course would simply be lost among the real quality giants in the Phillie suburbs. Agreed.

Heck, there are several new Colorado public course that I see as being superior to Cherry Hills and a a few of them could compete against the likes of the courses mentioned previosuly from the Keystone State (see the specific names under my response to Morrison).

What's amusing is how the geographical location of one Flynn course receives a disproportionate amount of ink while those clustered together in the greater Phillie area receive little, if nothing, at all. Such is the power of championships and the ink they generate.

Bill:

Forgive me partner -- I'm talking about current golf development in the State of Colorado -- since you checked out a few years ago you've missed plenty of what has come forward since.

Bill -- with all due respect -- your memory of Colorado golf is like Yankee fans who can only remember Mickey Mantle. Life has moved on considerably since then -- ditto Colorado golf.

Wayne:

Do yourself a huge favor -- before you continue to bark on and on about me -- how bout you go play Cherry Hills and the elite level of courses in Colorado before doing the same tired old "let's beat up on Ward" routine.

P.S. Wayne -- my point was a simple one -- you must have missed it as you were typing the usual Ward retort -- I simply said that several relatively new Colorado courses (post the time redanman disappeared from the scene) are beyond the likes of Cherry Hills. I never made the claim that all of these relatively new courses in The Centennial State are equivalent to the top five in the Phillie suburbs although I see the Norman Course at Red Sky Ranch as being one that could easily compete against them. Quite possibly Lakota Canyon Ranch would be another -- ditto Bear Dance.

I don't see how Cherry Hills continues as top 100 and that it is proclaimed by Digest as being RIGHT BEHIND the likes of Shinnecock Hills. That is really my point and yes partner doing the heavy lifting in playing courses from around the country is part of the process in being able to make cross comparisons between different areas of the country. I guess it's my fault that I do such personal research while others see fit to take the lounge lizard approach in cuddling on their home sofa.

Mark F:

With all due respect partner -- you are a bit toooooooo close to the situation at Cherry Hills to tell others -- myself included -- that we are all wet with our feelings on the course. Congrats on your work there and to all the folks on a most successful event.

Cherry Hills is nowhere near the 21st best course in the USA. How it continues in the top 100 is also one of the great questions I certainly have -- particularly when other courses in the greater Philiie area -- those even designed by Flynn himself get short shrift.

Tom MacWood:

"Great terrain" for Cherry Hills -- please you need to go the site and see it for yourself. It's more parksland type golf than anything else. Geeze I wonder -- have you ever played the course?

The course gets plenty of mileage because of the circumstances in being the "lone" big time course in a particular community that is west of the Mississippi River. That's how the fanfare started with the first Open in '38. Put Cherry Hills in the New York / New Jersey / Pennsylvania area and it would be swallowed up by the more legitimate contenders that exist in those respective states.

[wsmorrison]

Matt,

My wife won't let me lounge on the sofa.  So I do it at the computer  

Studying topos, drawings, and photographs, I'd be surprised anybody would consider that ground superb for golf.  The stream and features Flynn created are pretty interesting though and at this point I think the course doesn't rise to the reputation.  As you said, I need to get out there and will do so.  I don't have time to visit many courses out there.  I'll let you guys do that while I sit back and criticize  

I'm going to keep busting on you at least until you spell it Philly rather than Phillie.  Again, for you Joisey types, it is Philadelphia!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I'm going to keep busting on you at least until you spell it Philly rather than Phillie.  Again, for you Joisey types, it is Philadelphia!

Wayne-

  WE talk funny?  What are you doing tomorrow night?  Would you like to come to a diner in Jersey?  We are well known for our quality of diners.  How about Olga's, a short ride across the Ben Franklin from you?  7:00 okay?  

Matt-  Can you come to dinner?  Pick me up at the rest area on the Turnpike at 5:00.  

 

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

Do you really want people to know that you'd like Matt to pick you up at a rest stop?  

I've been to Olga's, it is pretty darn good, for breakfast anyway.  Why not meet on Friday in PA.  Can you wait a minute or two until we pound some sense into that senseless Malone?

[T_MacWood]

Matt
Yes I've played it. Of course its not on the edge of a mountain in Nevada, Utah or New Mexico so it might not be up to your elevated standard...I don't think you get enough oxygen to your brain when you review your favorites from big sky country.  

[Mark_Fine]

Doug,
You got your firm and fast    

Matt,
I won't get into a heavy debate about the quality of the golf course.  As I said earlier, as the course is now, it is not on my list of top Flynn designs nor in my personal Top 100.  What I am saying, however, is that the potential is there to be one of Flynn's best.  What Flynn did there was outstanding but time will tell how much can be brought back.  Matt one thing you should realize is that the more you study a golf course, the more you learn about how good or how bad it really is.  I've gotten to know the real Cherry Hills pretty well (just like you've gotten to know The Black Course at Bethpage).  Heck, I've probably spent more time there than Flynn did    When we eventually get together to play a round I'll enlighten you about the original design and how masterfully Flynn used the topography.  It's actually pretty darn good when you study it.  There is some good elevation change on the property to make for interesting golf holes.

BillV,
I have been to Wellshire a number of times and did a consultation report on the golf course for them.  As you know, this old Ross course has changed quite a bit and it would be great to see more of the Ross character brought back.  Unfortunately it is owned by the city and when the tee sheet is always full and there is little money to spend, not too much work gets done  

One of the members I got to know at Cherry Hills told me his grandfather actually owned the course at one time.  I showed him my report about the design and he would love to see work done on it.  Supposedly he has some connections but we'll see.  

Regarding those trees on #17; believe me we tried to get them down before the championship.  One willow was removed on the right which helped, but the rest needed to wait till the plan is fully implemented.  Trees are very sacred at CHCC and education takes time to explain why they ruin the design intent of that hole.

What an amazing bunker shot to end the tournament by Kim.  Too bad about Pressel and Lang.  I followed them for two of the days and they both played great.  I saw Lang's press conference in the media tent on Thursday and she handled herself well.  
Mark

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mark-

  Thanks!  
  Yes, it was good to see the ball hitting the green and just going[/blue] rather than checking up.  It wasn't brown like Westchester was, but it still was firm.  Cool!

I do hope Tom P. got to see it.  

  Same with the fairways--the slope on 18th fairway and looks very significant--and I know TV flattens things out--but the ball looked like it hit, and went sideways, maybe backwards!  

Mark, thanks again for the various information supplied above.

Yes, Dr. Bill, I'm not forgetting you.  Thank you, as well, for the firsthand insights as to CHCC plays.  

[Chris Holcombe]

Most of the players sure did not know how to play firm greens. They would smack an iron to the middle of the green, think they hit a good shot, and watch it roll off the back time after time. A sad commentary to the standard tournament course set up, I think.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

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