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Gary_Nelson

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Best course w/o sandy soil
« on: June 26, 2005, 10:19:27 PM »
Many posters make the recurring point that the best courses are ones laid out on sandy soil that drains well (ie. Pine Valley, TOC, NGLA, Sand Hills).

Assuming you aren't lucky enough to be blessed with this type of land, can you still design a course with the same (similar) features as one created on sandy soil?  If not, what are some examples of features taken out of the architect's portfolio when faced with this situation?


cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2005, 08:05:19 AM »
Whistling Straits
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

ForkaB

Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2005, 08:07:36 AM »
Pebble Beach

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2005, 08:28:39 AM »
Augusta National

bodgeblack

Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2005, 08:31:58 AM »
Walton Heath, superb heathland atop a seam of london clay.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2005, 08:38:27 AM »
Augusta National
Bill,

You beat me to it.  Many people do not realise how much drainage has been installed over the years...after opening.  so much for finality from Dr. Mackenzie..

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2005, 09:09:06 AM »
Quote from Tom Doak (who has posted this before):

Analysis of the Top 50 Golf Courses in the World
(GOLF Magazine, 2001)

28 of the top 50 are built on sand;
Several more are built on sandy loam;
But several are built on clay, including Augusta National, Oakmont, Olympic, and Riviera.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jonathan Davison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2005, 10:32:19 AM »
Loch Lomond

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2005, 01:17:25 PM »
Brian.

It is pretty impressive being there in person and seeing how quickly everything dries out after a rain. As a lay person in golf architecture and construction I found the attached PDF link a good graphic as to how it's accomplished.


http://www.augusta.com/masters/images/headlines/040805/SubAirArt.pdf

Bill

Gary_Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2005, 02:38:16 PM »
Am I to understand that everything you can do in sandy soil can be replicated in clay?  All you need is a big enough budget for Sub-Air or other types of fancy drainage schemes?

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2005, 02:54:08 PM »
Royal Worlington, Royal Ashdown, Alwoodley

Mike_Cirba

Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2005, 02:59:22 PM »
Merion or Oakmont.

(My Pennsylvania roots are showing.  ;))

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2005, 05:35:58 PM »
But several are built on clay, including Augusta National, Oakmont, Olympic, and Riviera.


Is Olympic really built on clay?  The property just west of the club is still sand-based and many early pictures of the club (back in the '20s as Lakeside CC) show the property treeless.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2005, 07:57:08 PM »
Gary

the most difficult features to incorporate are the little humps and swales in fairways and around greens, especially if the clay course has reasonable rainfall.  If the surface drainage of every such hump and hollow is not managed, maintenance problems will follow.

The other feature that is more difficult is bunkers.  Build a bunker below ground level in clay and you will need excellent drainage.  Visually intimidating bunkers are possible with elevated greens, but are more difficult with greens built at ground level.  

I think Raynor (or was it MacDonald) gave the quality of soil about 25% of the rating for the perfect course.  It is quoted in George Bahto's The Evangelist of Golf.  It is certainly a lot easier to buld and retain complex landforms in sand and in sandy loam than it is in heavy clay.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2005, 08:38:20 PM »
I always thought Olympic was sand based, but as it IS headland (with sand on the western face, across the Great Highway) I could certainly be mistaken.

Eugene CC really gets the job done on heavy clay, in a wet climate.

Tom
the pres

T_MacWood

Re:Best course w/o sandy soil
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2005, 08:48:55 PM »
The Golf Club, Yale and Cape Breton are three of my favorites.

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