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Matt_Ward

The Lure of Lakota
« on: June 14, 2005, 08:40:09 PM »
Had my second visit to Lakota Cayon Ranch (New Castle, CO) this past week. The layout is from Jim Engh and it's certainly one of the very best public courses you can play from The Centennial State.

Here's the skinny ...

7,111 yards from the black tees
72.2 CR
137 Slope

Once again, Engh has done a syperlative job in taking a very demanding site and transposing all the ingredients at hand into a design that joins at the hip not only scenic beauty but shotmaking requirements that will keep you coming back for more.

Info on the course can be accessed thru:

lakotacanyonranch.com

Lakota is not bulletproof though.

The opening holes (578 yards) reminds me of the 15th at Sanctuary in Sedalia -- but unlike that hole which dog-legs aburptly to the right -- this hole featues the same bend but to the left. The issue?

On both holes the opportunity in cutting the corner is fraught with more risk than the reward is worth. The angle of the hole turns so quickly and there is little landing room for any drive that doesn't literally drop from the sky and land softy like a butterfly.

The green complex is well done and the fronting water hazard to the left will keep those looking to go for the green in two in check.

The front side at Lakota works through some of the more unique and breathtaking ponderosa pine area you can imagine. The 2nd is a decent mid-length par-4 of 375 yards but at the 3rd you face a 170-yard downhill tee shot to a geen with more movement than the Atlantic Ocean on a rough day. The front right pin placement is quite entertaining because the approach must be absolutely exact in its execution. In this day and age of power the 3rd at Lakota demonstrates the presence of precision.

The next two holes demonstrate why Jim Engh is a master IMHO in regards to the creation of par-5 holes that really sizzle.

The 4th is 557 yards and plays uphill for the bulk of its distance. The tee short starts from a ledge but the optimum shot is fade to match up well with the nature of the fairway. If a player can gain sufficient distance and the proper position in the fairway a go at the green in two blows is a possibility. The shot, though, must be well struck and reach the green which sits high above the fairway. There are a range of options beyond going for the green in two but the hole will not compromise or give anything away. A real gem of a hole.

The downhill slightly turning left 5th at 620 yards is also a honey. Here the tee shot dictactes everything -- if you play conservatively to the right it becomes a two-shot hole. If you angled closer to the left you must deftly avoid a strand of trees that hug that side. There is a new championship tee being created now and when you stand on the box and gaze below you see all that the hole requires.

The finishing four holes at Lakota on the front side are likely the weakest of the bunch. The 6th and 8th share many qualities -- both have high tee position hitting to a valley below and the shot value for both s fairly similar (395 yds) at the 6th and (398 yds) at the 8th. The 7th is a good par-3 but it doesn't have the natural qualities you encountered at the 3rd. It's longer and a bit uphill but it's not beguiling.

The concluding hole -- the 9th -- plays 205 yards and is well done. Here you hit from a higher position but the green is banked so deliciously that you need to be utterly preisely with the approach.

The back nine at Lakota starts with the 10th -- a 397-yd downhill par-4 that begs for the big tee shot but the smarter play is gaining position. There is a center-located fairway bunker that lies close to the green. The putting surface is also done nicely with a good bit of contour.

At the 11th the whole value of Lakota takes center stage. Again -- Engh interjects in a bold way with the dynamic par-5 11th at 583 yards. The hole plunges downhill as you stand on a tee no bigger than an Olympic diving platform.

There is a solitary bunker on the right and it's meant more to save the player than to punish him. The key here is to decide how far down the hole do you wish to hit the tee shot. The further you go the more narrower and dicey the propositoin.

Even after you hit the tee shot you need to gauge a second shot to a green that runs savagely from left-to-right with a menacing pond to the right.

The 12th is a fine long par-4 of 476 yards with a center-placed fairway bunker -- the lone issue -- Engh embellishes the hole with flaired containment mounding at the green which only serves as overkill IMHO.

The 13th hole is a well done short par-4 and the scenerary of the mountains in the distant foreground is stunning and easy to lose one's concentratin.

The 14th hole is neatly done with a split upper and lower te box. The lower box is the for use at the back tee spot and it provides a different slant on the hole.

The 15th hole is the best par-3 at Lakota -- it plays 217 yards and the shot needs to be playd with the highest level of skill as the green is banked appropriately to repel all but the best of plays.

One of the issues I have had with the Engh courses I have played is the lack of attention he gives to par-4's when compared to what you see with his 3-par's and 5-par's. Such is not the case with the 16th -- one of the best public holesI have played in Colorado as it tops out at 418 yards and is the #1 handicap hole at the course.

The tee shot is slightly uphill on this dog-leg right and the closer you play the tee shot to the canyon that runs parallel to the line of play the better. The approach is also well calculated as the green is diagonally angled and has a split between the front half and the back half. There is a also a bunker that protects anything that comes up short.

The 17th hole is one of those few examples of the drop-shot par-3 that comes off with no hitches. At 198 yards you encounter another of Engh's tactics -- the tongue area where the pin can be located. Here at the 17th the hidden "tongue" is in the rear spot on the green and it adds conservatively 25 yards to the total length -- even though the hole plays downhill.

The final hole is IMHO -- one of the best of its types -- a true risk'n reward hole of 557 yards / par-5. This hole has been mentiond previously here on GCA and the range of options on this slightly uphill on the tee shot hole are too numerous to mention. For the player looking for high risk there's plenty to think about. For those opting for the more conservative route the possibilities for success are not simply guaranteed because you have choosen the lower risk option.

All in all, Lakota Canyon Ranch joins for me the likes of other superb cost-conscious public layouts like Wild Horse. Lakota is not bulletproof to the tune of Black Mesa in NM, but it clearly goes a good distance beyond what Engh created in Grand Junction with Redlands Mesa and that's a course rated #1 among all CO public courses by GolfWeek.

Anyone traveling the i-70 corridor should make a visit and skip the over-priced / over-hyped layouts that dot the Vail / Aspen vicinity.

You will not be disappointed in what you encounter at Lakota Canyon Ranch.

 

DMoriarty

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2005, 01:51:25 AM »
Matt, thanks for the review . . . you'd tell us if you had any kind of economic or professional connection to Jim Engh or his organization, wouldn't you?  

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2005, 10:52:44 AM »
Dave:

For the purposes of full disclosure -- I have met Jim Engh once. I have also met other architects face-to-face. I have no conflict of interest regarding my comments. I have also stated my comments on all the Jim Engh courses I have played and not everything I have opined about has been 100% positive on each one of them.

Do yourself a favor Dave -- try playing one of his courses before you throw forward the hint that a possible fix is in by me. You may have me confused with others on GCA who mix and match their professional role. The real issue is that few people have played any of Engh's designs.

Jim Engh is a very talented architect but his reach, at this moment, is mainly in the Colorado area. With that said, few GCA folks have actually played any of his courses. I just believe Lakota Canyon Ranch is a superb golf course worthy of anyone's time / money when venturing through Colorado along I-70.

Nothing more -- nothing less.

THuckaby2

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2005, 10:59:35 AM »
Matt - DAMN!  I just found New Castle on the map and it's the wrong way for me... I shall be driving east from Denver next week, needing to get to N. Platte, NE that evening and well... crazier things have been done.

So... is there anything worth stopping for going in that direction from Denver on I-76?  I know Bayside is in Ogallala, NE and is supposed to be cool... but anything besides that?

Most likely we'll just press on, as it's a lot to expect to try and play golf that day (fly into Denver, playing Wild Horse and another nearby course early the next morning  ;)) but... I just thought I'd ask, to keep the options open, you know?

 ;D
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 11:01:01 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2005, 11:00:50 AM »
For you southeasterners, Jim Engh has been hired to do the new course at Reynolds Plantation. Now, nearly everyone, will get a chance to enjoy his work.
Mr Hurricane

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2005, 11:16:32 AM »
Huck:

Be sure to play Bayside when in western Nebraska. I really liked the course and candidly don't see it being thaaaaat far behind Wild Horse as many have opined.

Bayside has a number of interesting holes from the talented duo of Axland & Proctor. Check out the interesting green sites -- most notably the par-3 17th -- what a superb green site and one that should be studied by all modern architects today.

I also loved the par-5 15th hole -- because of the demands from the tee and green.

In regards to your travel before heading out on I-76 to Nebraska you may want to make a slight detour and head just north to the Fort Collins area and play Vista Ridge (Jay Moorish) -- in the town of Erie and about 20 miles north of Denver or go slightly more north to Windsor -- just south of Fort Collins and play the new Highland Meadows layout by Art Schaupeter, formely with Keith Foster. Both courses are different in how they present themselves -- the green sites at Highland Meadows are well done and the overall demands and design element at Vista Ridge is well done.

Let me also point out that one public course that gets FAR TOO LITTLE ATTENTION ON A NATIONAL LEVEL -- is Bear Dance in Larkspur -- about 20 minutes south of Denver just off I-25. Fantastic design and easily among the top five public layouts I have played from the Centennial State.

If you have the time venture to Bear Dance and take in what this gem offers -- you won't be disappointed.

THuckaby2

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 11:21:25 AM »
Matt:  muchas gracias, you have given much food for thought.  The problem is we have absolutely ZERO time for any of this - the only time available is maybe on the way out east on the flight day - thus it's a slim chance we decide to play at all, and if we do it's one round only.  All other time is booked.

So the question is this:  just how worth it is it to do any of these and get into N. Platte 4-5 hours later than we otherwise might?  We ought to leave DIA at about 12:30pm and will be weary travellers, having all gotten up really early and flown a long way that morning.  We also begin a VERY big day pretty early the next day.

So under those circumstances, how mandatory is Bayside?

Note WH is already planned and booked, for the next morning.  All time after that is also accounted for, and we'll have zero time to stop on the way back also.

TH
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 11:24:37 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2005, 11:34:29 AM »
Huck -

My guys played Pradera and Sand Hills in the same day. It is south of Denver, but a lot of fun to play.

Jim
Mr Hurricane

THuckaby2

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2005, 11:40:22 AM »
Huck -

My guys played Pradera and Sand Hills in the same day. It is south of Denver, but a lot of fun to play.

Jim

Holey moley - that seems to be a lot of driving - wow.

Check your IM....

TH

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2005, 11:46:17 AM »
Huck:

If there's a will -- there's a way.

I don't know the particulars of the type of people who will be with you. You can play just north or sourth of Denver and still get to North Platte.

I would still recommend Bayside if you need a more localized Nebraska course.

Hope this helps ...

P.S. Keep Lakota Canyon Ranch on your radar the next time you have some more time availability when coming to CO.

THuckaby2

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2005, 11:57:39 AM »
Matt:

I shall run this by my car-mates.  We'll see what works out.

And Lakota is a must-play in my book for sure... who knows if and when I shall get to CO again but never say never.

Thanks.

TH

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2005, 05:32:40 PM »
Tom:

Go out of your way to play Lakota Canyon, it is just terrific

Cary
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

THuckaby2

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2005, 05:35:00 PM »
Tom:

Go out of your way to play Lakota Canyon, it is just terrific

Cary

Cary - Oh I will, some day... just not this trip. Oh well.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 05:54:51 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2005, 08:28:44 PM »
Huck:

When time permits I am sure you will make every attempt to play the course.

The thing about Lakota is that for all the space that is used on GCA to trumpet such public courses as Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon, Bethpage Black, etc, etc, it's no less valid to include the likes of Lakota Canyon Ranch among such lofty
company -- in fact -- I see Lakota being beyond the likes of both WR and RC.

Lakota has a first rate site -- one that was extremely difficult to rout but was done in a superb manner by Jim Engh. There are some weaknesses to the course but on the whole -- Lakota stands and deliver -- especially when you consider all the overpriced / overhyped golf that exists just east of its location in the Vail and Aspen areas.

The lure of Lakota awaits you Huck -- keep it on your calendar for a future play.

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2005, 08:52:05 PM »
Question for Matt Ward, why does someone have to play the course to question your motivations for writing about that course?  That would seem to be a non sequitur.  

I also noticed one other irony in your post.  I see you started your description of the course with the phrase "here's the skinny".  Talk about a freudian slip.  
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 08:53:43 PM by SS1 »

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2005, 02:14:58 PM »
SS1:

Glad you could join the discussion.

The issue of the phrase "here's the skinny" is nothing more than saying "at a glance" or anything of a similar nature. No irony, as you claim, intended.

I have always said that people should play the courses in question before lobbing forward any concrete opinions. Nothing more -- nothing less.

The reality is that many people are not familiar with the works of Jim Engh and as a result his best designs -- Lakota being one of them -- often get lost in the sauce when compared to the pet favorites that often appear here on GCA.

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2005, 02:51:22 PM »
A couple of people have aksed me offline so I wanted to share with others who may make the trek to Lakota Canyon Ranch in New Castle.

It would behoove anyone making the trip to also include the following western range public courses if possible ...

Haymaker in Steamboat Springs

Devils' Thumb in Delta

Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction

All of these -- plus Lakota make for a nice combination of golf without bankrupting the golfer who seeks such courses.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2005, 05:57:59 PM »
To add to courses to play

Aspen Public: Snowmass
Aspen Private: Maroon Creek and Roaring Fork
Breckenridge Public: Breckenrige GC
Vail Resort:Norman's Course at Red Sky and The Summit at Cor
Steamboat Springs: Sheridan


     
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 06:01:55 PM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2005, 07:51:28 PM »
Cary:

I didn't add Snowmass because although Engh did a fine job fitting in his design over the old course I don't see it being in the same league as "bargain" status given what the courses I just mentioned do charge during the peak summer season.

I'm also a huge fan of the Norman Course at Red Sky Ranch but it's price tag is quite exorbitant for the golfer looking to play several rounds and not have their $$ eaten up at one facility -- albeit one of the very best public you can play in The Centennial State.

By the way -- The Summit Course at Cordillera cuts a fine visual image but there's really nothing much there from a design perspective. It's funny -- Cordillera has some of the best property -- save for the forgettable Irwin design (Mountain) -- and none of the layouts are really worth much from a straightforward architectural perspective. Ditto Maroon Creek and Roaring Fork, to a lesser degree.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2005, 11:15:28 PM »
Matt:

I pretty much agree with you but I listed those courses for the following reasons:

Snowmass: best redo besides Strantz's Monterey CC
Roaring Fork and Maroon Creek: In the same area as Snowmass and Lakota Canyon, so one could stay 4 days and play four courses, both RF and MC have a number of good holes
Summit:While this is a very dissappointing courses, the vistas are great, its the 3rd highest in North America, and even I can hit a 5 wood 250 yards ;D ;D + Summit is in the same area as Red Sky.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2005, 02:27:04 PM »
Cary:

Summit is much higher up on the mountain than Red Sky Ranch -- when you play the Norman you can see I-70 in the nearby distance from the course.

I'd be curious to know how many playable days there are with Summit?

One last thing -- Lakota is now adding a few new tee boxes --the par-5 5th was in the final stages in completing one.

P.S. I liked Snowmass for how Engh was able to get the routing completed in such a cramp place. Is it worth $150 to play? No -- not when Lakota is just down the road IMHO.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2005, 03:32:35 PM »
We played the Summit twice, once the tempature was 52 degrees when it was 76 at the Fazio course. At first blush, between the rain delays and the views, we thought it was pretty nice.

We played it a second time in good weather and thought the course was very disappointing, like a 6, and that maybe a little generous.

If there is a 24 degree differential, I'd bet less than 60 days
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2005, 09:28:17 PM »
all these good CO courses.....maybe there should be GCA trip someday...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2005, 03:38:56 PM »
Paul --

Forget on waiting for that to happen and just go when you can. There's plenty available at all different price points. Lakota just happens to be one of the best affordable public courses you can play in the USA IMHO.

Matt_Ward

Re:The Lure of Lakota
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2005, 01:23:16 PM »
If there's a weakness with Lakota Canyon I believe the 1st hole -- a long par-5 of 570 yards is one area of concern.

Here Jim Engh designed a sweeping dog-leg left that is reminscent of the par-5 14th hole at Sanctuary -- although in the case of the hole at Lakota the hole at Santuary turns to the right.

Unfortunately, the holes in both instances turn so abruptly that the player takes on an incredible risk with little gain if they opt to cut off some of the corner. Why?

There's no real landing area for the ball to stop and it's quite possible -- almost likely -- that any ball with serious pace will continue to shoot through the fairway into Elivs territory.

I have to wonder if architects understand today that holes that are close to or right at the 90 degree turn angle are not needed and have little value. They are often abrupt and force the golfer to play the hole in only one predictable manner time after time after time.

A slight turn of say 45 degrees allow the player to bend the ball accordingly and provide for a wealth of options in playing the hole.

The 1st at Lakota is a better hole than Sanctuary because of the green contour and the surrounding mounds and frontal pond but it lacks the bulletproof status that so many other par-5 holes provide for at the layout -- namely the 4th, 5th, 11th and 18th holes.

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