Annika to play Pine Valley & Merion

[JSlonis]

"I don't know much about the Crump Cup or other Top Am events but I'd be happy to bet $100 on Annika to win any Men's Am. anywhere anytime."

Ted:

I sure wouldn't go that far. But by the end of the summer we should get some kind of comparative indication on that. Tomorrow Sorenstam is going to play Merion East and that's why I think she shold play the new tips which are listed in the high 6800s. That would probably give you some kind of indication of how she might do if she played in this year's US Amateur at Merion.

You actually think she'd do OK against some kid like Ryan Moore? I don't.

He is exactly the guy I was thinking of when I was typing my post. And my answer is yes, I'd bet on Annika over him on any course playing 6,800 yards or less.

-Ted

Can I get some of that action??  I'd take Moore in a NY minute.

Ryan Moore has made the cut in two straight Master's as an Amateur.  Annika is fantastic, and would beat a large majority of top Mid-Am players, but I don't see her competing with a player of the calibre of Ryan Moore.

Don't forget...while a shorter course will benefit Annika, don't you think it would also benefit to a greater degree, a stronger player like Moore?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I wonder if Pine Valley is one of those courses that is almost easier to score the first time you play it."

Sean:

I believe that is probably a very reasonable thing to say and for the reasons you gave too.

But in my opinion courses like PVGC when it's set up for the Crump or Merion East when it's set up for the Wilson are just so much harder to play well and score well on than normal.

The way the Crump Cup is set up compared to normal for a player like me if I wasn't carefully when I played well enough to play in things like that could've been up to ten shots. For the really good players who played in it the difference could've been 2-5 shots.

The way I went about playing the course in the Crump is I tried as hard as I could to do everything possible never to make worse than a bogie and I was pretty successful at that. But I knew I was always going to make a pretty good number of bogies in the Crump mostly on the front nine for some reason. But I generally made a couple of birdies too. But in the fifteen or so years I played in that tournament I think I only made the championship flight twice where the really good players generally get in there but certainly not always just because of the way PVGC can be with those infamous "others".

My first year in the Crump my very first match was guess who? Jay Sigel who ended up winning the Crump something like nine times. And we were in the flight below the Championship of all things. That sure didn't happen to him very often, I'm sure maybe just a couple of times in many years but it happened to me a lot.

[TEPaul]

Ask Jamie Slonis about PVGC now and the Crump not me. Jamie almost won the Crump Cup last year and he's definitely going to win it one of these days, in my opinion.

[Geoffrey Childs]

"I don't know much about the Crump Cup or other Top Am events but I'd be happy to bet $100 on Annika to win any Men's Am. anywhere anytime."

Ted:

I sure wouldn't go that far. But by the end of the summer we should get some kind of comparative indication on that. Tomorrow Sorenstam is going to play Merion East and that's why I think she shold play the new tips which are listed in the high 6800s. That would probably give you some kind of indication of how she might do if she played in this year's US Amateur at Merion.

You actually think she'd do OK against some kid like Ryan Moore? I don't.

He is exactly the guy I was thinking of when I was typing my post. And my answer is yes, I'd bet on Annika over him on any course playing 6,800 yards or less.

-Ted

Ted - Ryan Moore made the cut twice at Augusta. He's made several cuts and finished fairly well in other PGA tour events.  I followed him every shot of his semi last year at the US Am and there is NO WAY Annika could compete with him on any course at any length - period.  His short game is MILES ahead of hers. He is a magician around the greens and makes every putt he needs to.  He will win on tour within a year.

[JSlonis]

I'll be flat out honest...although I've never seen Annika play in person, unless the golf course was extremely long, I think Annika would probably kick my A$$ seven ways til' Sunday!!  

She plays and practices everyday that she wants to.  She is by far the best female player in the world, and for a tournament level Mid-Am player to compete with her, we'd all have to quit our jobs so we could get out of the office and onto the Practice Range and Golf Course where she spends her ENTIRE day.

There are definitely days that I feel I could compete with a player like Annika, but certainly not on a consistant basis.  

[TEPaul]

"I'll be flat out honest...unless the golf course was extremely long, I think Annika would kick my A$$ seven ways til' Sunday!!"

I wouldn't say something like that Jamie. The only thing I can see really hurting you day in and day out against a game like Sorenstam's is a little too much of a lack of consistency for the very reasons you just gave compared to the way she plays. Face it, Sorestam is like a virtual human robot she's so consistent. But if you brought your A game I really doubt she could stick right with you on a man-sized golf course. She may be the greatest woman ever but she's still a woman and I'd still offer to room with her at the Crump, but I doubt I'd do the same with you and I think you'd agree unless you want to see what snoring that sounds like a 737 taking off sounds like.

[Ted Kramer]

"I don't know much about the Crump Cup or other Top Am events but I'd be happy to bet $100 on Annika to win any Men's Am. anywhere anytime."

Ted:

I sure wouldn't go that far. But by the end of the summer we should get some kind of comparative indication on that. Tomorrow Sorenstam is going to play Merion East and that's why I think she shold play the new tips which are listed in the high 6800s. That would probably give you some kind of indication of how she might do if she played in this year's US Amateur at Merion.

You actually think she'd do OK against some kid like Ryan Moore? I don't.

He is exactly the guy I was thinking of when I was typing my post. And my answer is yes, I'd bet on Annika over him on any course playing 6,800 yards or less.

-Ted

Ted - Ryan Moore made the cut twice at Augusta. He's made several cuts and finished fairly well in other PGA tour events.  I followed him every shot of his semi last year at the US Am and there is NO WAY Annika could compete with him on any course at any length - period.  His short game is MILES ahead of hers. He is a magician around the greens and makes every putt he needs to.  He will win on tour within a year.

Well I guess the conversation is over, I didn't know that you could turn hypotheticals into fact with such clarity and ease. . .

Thanks for your opinion.

-Ted

[Geoffrey Childs]

Well I guess the conversation is over, I didn't know that you could turn hypotheticals into fact with such clarity and ease. . .

Thanks for your opinion.

-Ted

Ted -  Could you please explain that to my fiance?  She has never quite grasped my clarity of persuasion in ANY of our "discussions"?

Seriously - I have no facts but this kid REALLY impressed me last year at Winged Foot.  

[JSlonis]

"I'll be flat out honest...unless the golf course was extremely long, I think Annika would kick my A$$ seven ways til' Sunday!!"

I wouldn't say something like that Jamie. The only thing I can see really hurting you day in and day out against a game like Sorenstam's is a little too much of a lack of consistency for the very reasons you just gave compared to the way she plays. Face it, Sorestam is like a virtual human robot she's so consistent. But if you brought your A game I really doubt she could stick right with you on a man-sized golf course. She may be the greatest woman ever but she's still a woman and I'd still offer to room with her at the Crump, but I doubt I'd do the same with you and I think you'd agree unless you want to see what snoring that sounds like a 737 taking off sounds like.

Tom,

It is hard to say for sure because I've never really seen the top flight LPGA players play up close.  I'm sure many of the top Mid-Am's could compete with her when they had their "A" games clicking.  We just don't have the robotic consistency that she seems to possess.

[TEPaul]

"Well I guess the conversation is over, I didn't know that you could turn hypotheticals into fact with such clarity and ease. . ."

Ted:

In a discussion like this one I guess you have to draw the line somewhere. Do you think Annika could ever hold her own on a man-sized course with Tiger. I guess what most are saying about Ryan Moore these days is he may not be far from that right now---and I can't see how Annika, as good as she is, could ever really get to that point. Do you really think she can get even better than she is now? I can't imagine it.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
It is hard to say for sure because I've never really seen the top flight LPGA players play up close."

I haven't either. I did go out and officiate the USGA Men's Publinx qualifier that Wie was in last year and I was about as impressed by her as I expected to be. If that young lady learns how to really chip and putt consistently well the rest of the LPGA better watch out for her too.

[Ted Kramer]

"Well I guess the conversation is over, I didn't know that you could turn hypotheticals into fact with such clarity and ease. . ."

Ted:

In a discussion like this one I guess you have to draw the line somewhere. Do you think Annika could ever hold her own on a man-sized course with Tiger. I guess what most are saying about Ryan Moore these days is he may not be far from that right now---and I can't see how Annika, as good as she is, could ever really get to that point. Do you really think she can get even better than she is now? I can't imagine it.

I already answered the question about Annika v Tiger on a man-sized course. I don't think she could beat Tim Herron on a 7,400 yard course . . .But at 6,800 yards I think it becomes a very different story.

I know that there are no answers to questions like this, but I do find it odd that people would quickly dismiss the idea/possibility that Annika could beat an excellent and proven male amatuer on a course that didn't overwhelm her with length and brute force.

She is as close to automatic as I have ever seen in sport.

-Ted

[George Pazin]

Annika never ceases to amaze me, and I probably wouldn't want to bet much if anything against her...

HOWEVER, she missed the cut at Colonial by what, 3, 4, 5 shots?

Good Lord, Moore finished something like 12th or 13th at The Masters in '04. I can't remember what he finished this year.

I wouldn't bet on Annika against any tour pro, regardless of the course, except maybe a par 3 course that was set up very easily. She might win against someone occasionally, and she is just amazing enough that if she spent a few years really working on head to head, she might raise her game up to eventually be competitive, but the bottom line is right now she still loses straight up way more often than not.

And she's still totally unbelievable. Does anyone know what odds they're giving for her to win the Grand Slam? It has to be ridiculously low.

[SPDB]

I'm betting she finds Merion tougher by about 5-6 strokes.  

[wsmorrison]

Although she looks extremely fit and strong, I would say that she'll have some trouble with the length and thickness of the rough, that is if she ever gets in it.  Also, like Tom said, if the conditions were similar to what they can and do get the course like for the Wilson and what it will likely be like for the Amateur, she'll have some pretty interesting plays to the greens.  Her play around the greens will really dictate the kind of number she'll shoot.  Then there's the last line of defense; the greens themselves.  It'll be interesting to see how she putts on them.  I saw Ernie Els putting on 14 through 17 last week and he didn't look like he had them figured out.  Now he was playing in an outing for some banker types so who knows how hard he was trying; but he sure as heck wasn't trying to miss.

I've never been to an LPGA event, but aren't there pretty big differences between the course setups for the big tour and the ladies?  For that matter, there's probably a huge difference between course setup on the big tour and the senior circuit.

I watched Ryan Moore last year and if his game was totally on, I guess he could be Annika; but all the time?  I'm not so sure.  I think she'd win less than half the time, but not much.  

The course set-up and yardage is key, but I'd guess she plays Merion 3-4 strokes higher but if it is as SPDB predicts, I wouldn't be surprised.  It's gonna be hot and humid tomorrow too, so the conditions should be similar.

[johnk]

Annika's playing a lot better these days than when she played at Colonial...  Her short game is a lot better.  Maybe not top 50 mens, though.  Her driving distance is close to top 100 mens.

I've seen her in person, and these days she hits it longer than most college kids - and a HELL of a lot straighter...  Abnormally straight, really...

Since Colonial, she has played with the men in the Skins games, and fared OK.  Length was a problem when it came to making birdies.  She played the Tavistock Cup and shot 77 in 2004.

But if you put Sorenstam against Moore on a course where accuracy was a premium, she'd have a good chance.  I think it'd be closer than most here think.

PS> In another thread a couple of weeks ago, I called her a "mortal lock" to win the McDonalds.  It was never in doubt.  It would be good if she's able to complete the slam, but not everyone thinks so:

"``I don't think it's all that good if Annika wins every week because it makes the rest of us look like we can't play, and that's just not true,'' Davies said."

[TEPaul]

Well, the early word from some "eyes" around the Valley is that Annika Sorenstam shot a 69 today at PVGC from somewhere around the front to mid part of the back tees. That sounds to me like the back tee markers. The word filtering out from some who watched her down there is that they've never seen anyone hit the ball SO straight all day long and for those who know PVGC that's sort of what it takes.

A 69! That's really something. I'm a believer. She just lowered the lady's course record by three shots (Beth Daniel shot 72 in 1995 from 6400yds). If Sorenstam really did play from the back tees markers somewhere around the front to mid part of the back tees then that would mean she probably played the course at around 6900 because the back tees are now listed at 6999yds. (I had breakfast with Mr Brewer down there about a month ago and I had the card in my hand and told him; "Gordon, I just know I can find you one more yard out there", but he said; "That just happened to be the way it came in.").

Annka Sorenatam, you really are incredible. Let her into the Curmp Cup!! She might win it and I swear I really will offer to room with her once a get a close look at her!  

Oh, that's right I don't even play in it anymore but if I did play in it from where she apparently just did I estimate she would've clipped me by about 21 shots!  

[Sean Leary]

Not surprised that she could shoot 69 from the old back tees but from the new ones, I am. Geezus she is good..  

What are the chances she shoots par at Merion, even if she doesn't play it all the way back?  I'll take the over.....

[Ted Kramer]

Well, the early word from some "eyes" around the Valley is that Annika Sorenstam shot a 69 today at PVGC from somewhere around the front to mid part of the back tees. That sounds to me like the back tee markers. The word filtering out from some who watched her down there is that they've never seen anyone hit the ball SO straight all day long and for those who know PVGC that's sort of what it takes.

A 69! That's really something. I'm a believer. She just lowered the lady's course record by three shots (Beth Daniel shot 72 in 1995 from 6400yds). If Sorenstam really did play from the back tees markers somewhere around the front to mid part of the back tees then that would mean she probably played the course at around 6900 because the back tees are now listed at 6999yds. (I had breakfast with Mr Brewer down there about a month ago and I had the card in my hand and told him; "Gordon, I just know I can find you one more yard out there", but he said; "That just happened to be the way it came in.").

Annka Sorenatam, you really are incredible. Let her into the Curmp Cup!! She might win it and I swear I really will offer to room with her once a get a close look at her!  

Oh, that's right I don't even play in it anymore but if I did play in it from where she apparently just did I estimate she would've clipped me by about 21 shots!  

I'm not saying that Ryan Moore couldn't shoot 68 or better from the same set of tees, but maybe some of the doubters might now be willing to admit that my hypothetical $100 wager wouldn't be quite so absurd . . .

-Ted

[TEPaul]

Belay that! Hold on, hole on, there some word filtering in in my other ear. What did you say? She played from the middle set of tees not the back tees or the new tip tee boxes? OK You said you think she may've played from the new tip tee on #18 just for the hell of it? OK

I guess that would make it about 6400 or 6500.

She hit her first putt about five feet past on #1 and sunk the par putt coming back. OK

She hit a great drive dead down the middle on #2 and an approach about fifteen feet above the hole. What was that you said? Oh, that must have been caddie error.

She knocked it about six feet past and sunk a good par putt coming back.

She hit a beautiful looking 5 iron from around 190 on #3 right into the middle of the green. OK

zzzzt. Ah, lost the connection

[JESII]

Well, then Wayne, if I roomed with her down there maybe I just wouldn't sleep---that is after I got a good look at her.

Sully:

How do you think she'd stack up against the top 20 Crump players? Personally, I'd say pretty damn well but how does one go about analyzing something like that? Do you think the top 20 players in the Crump could just miss the cut in a men's PGA Tour event by one shot like Annika in Texas last year? Persoanlly I'd think most all the top 20 Crump Cup players probably wouldn't come close to doing that.

Tom, I would agree with this assesment but I asked the question a bit prematurely because after reading the first 4 or 5 posts it seemed most opinions (including yours) were that she would struggle at Pine Valley. After reading all the way through just now I see that was not your position at all so I apologize.

True, there really is no way to analyze it short of her playing in some sort of mid-am level event and I don't see any reason for that to happen.

I would tend to agree with Jamie and go so far as to say if she ever were in the field in the Crump she would be the prohibitive favorite.

Her scoring today and tomorrow really do not matter much at all considering she just yesterday completed a 5 or 8 or whatever stroke victory to capture the second leg of the women's Grand Slam. How would any of us play in a casual round the day after accomplishing something like that? I can't imagine our concentration would be real sharp, so whether it's 69 or 79, she has the physical and most importantly the mental tools to dominate a game which really provides very little competition to her.

I think the comparison (however speculative it might be) is a good one because what can typically be said separates the really good amateurs from the really good tour pros is their short game, and that seems to be a weakness for Annika in the minds of those on this site. I don't think comparing his performance in a Masters or two to her performance in a Colonial Invitational makes much sense either though so why don't we just play imaginary rounds on their behalf and see how they do? Ted Kramer can play for Annika, and who will play for Ryan Moore?

[TEPaul]

Probably normal PVGC green speed (but it does seem like she was a bit bold on the first two greens) and apparently normal pins from R. Christian. But isn't the most important question here whether or not this performance will earn her an invitation to the Crump Cup? I wonder how that field would feel with Sorenstam in it?  

If they invited her and she wasn't competing somewhere I wonder if she'd consider coming for the hell of it.

[Sean Leary]

From the middle tees, I wonder how many times she hit driver?

[TEPaul]

Sully:

In all seriousness as good as Annika obvously is how much different do you think her round down there would be if she had to play from the new tees in something like the Crump Cup or even a normal day? We're probably talking perhaps 400-500 yards difference than where she played from today. How much difference do you think that would make? Do you really think that kind of difference has much effect on a player like Trip Kuehne or a Ryan Moore? I don't see these good long hitting amateurs all that much but watching Kuehne last year at Ganton I swear I don't think I've seen anyone in person hit the ball that hard with what looks like a fairly normal swing.

That's why I mentioned early on in this thread that if she's going to play PVGC and Merion East why not just play them from the tips just to see what would happen? That's the only way to compare her performance to these good long amateurs today. The course length she played PV today from is probably about what she plays weekly on the LPGA.

[Ted Kramer]

Well, then Wayne, if I roomed with her down there maybe I just wouldn't sleep---that is after I got a good look at her.

Sully:

How do you think she'd stack up against the top 20 Crump players? Personally, I'd say pretty damn well but how does one go about analyzing something like that? Do you think the top 20 players in the Crump could just miss the cut in a men's PGA Tour event by one shot like Annika in Texas last year? Persoanlly I'd think most all the top 20 Crump Cup players probably wouldn't come close to doing that.

Tom, I would agree with this assesment but I asked the question a bit prematurely because after reading the first 4 or 5 posts it seemed most opinions (including yours) were that she would struggle at Pine Valley. After reading all the way through just now I see that was not your position at all so I apologize.

True, there really is no way to analyze it short of her playing in some sort of mid-am level event and I don't see any reason for that to happen.

I would tend to agree with Jamie and go so far as to say if she ever were in the field in the Crump she would be the prohibitive favorite.

Her scoring today and tomorrow really do not matter much at all considering she just yesterday completed a 5 or 8 or whatever stroke victory to capture the second leg of the women's Grand Slam. How would any of us play in a casual round the day after accomplishing something like that? I can't imagine our concentration would be real sharp, so whether it's 69 or 79, she has the physical and most importantly the mental tools to dominate a game which really provides very little competition to her.

I think the comparison (however speculative it might be) is a good one because what can typically be said separates the really good amateurs from the really good tour pros is their short game, and that seems to be a weakness for Annika in the minds of those on this site. I don't think comparing his performance in a Masters or two to her performance in a Colonial Invitational makes much sense either though so why don't we just play imaginary rounds on their behalf and see how they do? Ted Kramer can play for Annika, and who will play for Ryan Moore?

I'm ready for make believe at PV anytime . . .

-Ted