Lulu--Carving out a niche

[mike_malone]

 Lulu's restoration efforts are enabling the club to carve out a successful niche in a competitive market. Their attempt to recover  many of their green surfaces to the original rectangle form is a bold move which is to be commmended. This makes the course stand out both from a visual and a playability perspective.


    I can't speak to their tree removal efforts since I was not there before. But, Steve Sayers has a great grasp of his course's vision and mentioned many potential projects that will enhance the club's standing.

  I just feel that these classic courses built on interesting terrain benefit substantially from being opened up. More options are created; more views are created;  sun exposure and air movement enhanced.


        My main comment to Steve was that I wondered how much Ross was on site for this course, since so many holes seem determined by the natural features. The imaginative use of dips ,hills, and a quarry seem contrary to some faraway design.


    For those of you not familiar with the area, Manufacturers ( Flynn) is across the street. There are many other quality courses within a fifteen minute range.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike

Steve Sayers and I will be posting a "My Home Course" sometime soon. Glad you enjoyed your first visit.

You're right- it's a very competitive private club market in the area. Manufacturer's, North Hills, Sandy Run, Cedarbrook, Meadowlands, Talamore, Cricket, Sunnybrook, Commonwealth, Ashbourne,Melrose,Blue Bell,Whitemarsh, Ace, Old York Road,Green Valley, Philmont and Huntingdon Valley are all within 20-30 minutes of Lulu. I chose Lulu because it's such a fun course to play. The work that has been done by Ron Forse and the the construction company is outstanding, particularly the bunkers.

In the meantime, for those interested in some history and pics, take a look at:

www.lulucc.com


Steve

[wsmorrison]

I think LuLu is a marvelous course and the restoration work is very well done.  Steve Sayers (and John Filmyer) have had me out to the course prior to the restoration, during construction and afterwards.  Steve Shaffer recently joined the club (another friend to play with) and had me out the same day as Mike Malone and Eric Pevoto played with Sayers.  The course is in wonderful shape and is an integral component to classic golf in Philadelphia.  LuLu might be the first Ross course in Pennsylvania.  I look forward to Steve and Steve completing their My Home Course write-up.  Get some good pictures, especially number 8 for Tommy Naccarato.  Hey, Tommy, I birdied 8  

I think the Ross greens have a lot of interest and the expansion to the former margins is a great improvement.  Three, eleven and thirteen are nice examples of that.

I do have a question/remark about grassy faces to bunkers with flat bottoms.  Are they overly penal?  Both Steve and I hit into the faces over the course of the round (not often though).  If the ball hits into the face and rolls down, it invariably sits at the bottom of the slope and does not roll back.  This rarely allows a recovery shot of more than a splash out--more than a half-stroke penalty.  I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I don't mind taking my medicine.  How should the grassy faces be maintained?  So that balls get stuck in them, slide down them and roll further into the base of the flat bottoms or sit at the base of the slope?  It isn't an easy question to answer.  I don't think the Gulph Mills bunkers react that way to balls that land in the face.  This was Ross about the same time as LuLu, but I think Gil Hanse changed the bunker surrounds from the original--but they too are grassed faced.  I think they might be mowed a bit closer.  I might be wrong.  If Tom Paul was around he could respond.  

My question is, how should grass faced bunkers with flat sand bottoms be maintained from a playability standpoint?  I completely enjoyed my round and really like the course; I don't want this construed as criticism.  I am curious what most think should be the maintenance practice.  Again, they are absolutely fine the way they are but different maintenance practice options exist and result in different playabiltiy.

[TEPaul]

Restoring all the "squareness" to the greens of LuLu is not just interesting in my opinion, it's also an extremely cool historical thing to do. LuLu is reputedly the first course of Ross in Pennsylvania---perhaps 1911 or 1912. The fact that the greens were as square as they were shows so well where golf architecture was style-wise at that time as well as where Donald Ross was style-wise at that time.

If one then looks at my own course, GMGC, about a half hour away built in 1916 one sees how many of those greens were basically square but with prevalent "flair-outs" on some of the back corners.

If one then goes to Aronimink not far away that was built by Ross in 1928 one sees some really interesting multi-form green shapes and no "squareness" at all.

Thankfully all the greens of these courses have been restored recently and they're a fascinating study of not just how golf architecture evolved style-wise in those 16 or 17 years but how much Donald Ross's green style evolved in those years.

[Kyle Harris]

The squareness of the greens, especially at Lulu, makes them more difficult to read. All too often anymore, greens are contoured with surrounding features and you can therefore get a fairly easy idea of what the putt will do.

On such holes at Lulu like 3, 13 and 16, where the square green lays non-chalantly over some contours, you're really pressed to figure out what the green is doing. It's also a more interesting target from the fairway, as the green stretching to the hazards and edge of the green pad really make for a more nervous shot.

My round there with Steve (and John Filmyer) a month ago was superlative and the course has plenty going for it. Their insights and love for the course is infectious. Many thanks again.

[Steve Sayers]

Mike:

I’m not sure how much Ross was on site, but given the earliness of the design, I am confident he was.  Hatch may have also been on site (perhaps during construction c. 1918) given several of the greens exhibit the crown at the back of the greens so closely associated with him.

While much has been accomplished at Lu Lu there are still many projects (fairway re-contouring, green expansions, tree removal etc.) to be completed that we hope will further distinguish Lu Lu from other area courses.

Wayne:

With regard to the bunkers, we are still on a learning curve with them.  Not only in how the grass is maintained but also the sand.  The flatness of the bunkers has been an ongoing matter with the membership.  Not only do balls hit into the face of the bunkers release into the sand and stay close to the face, but balls hit into the sand at a low angle tend to run up against the face creating a very difficult situation.  Without question, the “new” bunkers are far more penal then our old ones.

Redanman:

Trees continue to fall!  There are many still on the list but we have made tremendous progress over the past few years.

[Eric Pevoto]

That's a great point, Kyle, concerning the subtleties of reading squarish greens.  Interesting.

Lulu has a great look to it and is definitely a fun play.  Lots of angular, blockish features that stick up out of the ground.  There's something about the squarish lines that's appealing to me.  Maybe just because it's so different; the place has an antique feel about it.

It's a nice, varied routing on a small piece of land; Ross apparently had that skill very early.  Not much wasted.  

One of the only criticisms I've ever seen of Ross was that he might be formulaic in situating tees and greens on high spots.  While there are certainly holes that fit this description, I don't think this is the case at Lulu.  

I love the way he used the quarry at 4/5, then another smaller one at 8.  The  big mound to the left of 11 green effectively blocks the left half of the green.  

Ross' use of the features could be viewed as quirky.  Were these types of holes seen more often early in his career?

 

[wsmorrison]

Steve,

Thanks for responding to my query about the bunkers and faces.  Interesting that the sand itself on the flat bottoms is affecting playability as well.  Even though you say you are early on the learning curve, I know with your involvement, Ron and Jim, and Todd's abilities that you'll be on top of the curve real soon!  What a terrific result.  

I'm very glad to have the pleasure of playing at LuLu.  Early PA Ross sure makes for an education.  See you and Shaffer soon at RGGC, I hope.

[TEPaul]

"With regard to then bunkers, we are still on a learning curve with them.  Not only in how the grass is maintained but also the sand.  The flatness of the bunkers has been an ongoing matter with the membership.  Not only do balls hit into the face of the bunkers release into the sand and stay close to the face, but balls hit into the sand at a low angle tend to run up against the face creating a very difficult situation.  Without question, the “new” bunkers are far more penal then our old ones."

Steve:

If your members are complaining about that there're two and only two reasonable responses you can give them;

1. Tell very nicely that it's they that made their bed by hitting their ball into the bunker as they did and they can just damn well sleep in that bed.

2. Tell them very nicely to "F... off and nothing more.

If they continue to pester you about that you may want to consider telling them you might have an assessment to buy a herd of small elephants and run them through the sand surfaces every single day if they don't shut up and leave you alone about the bunkers.

[Steve Sayers]

Tom:

The “don’t hit it there” response usually works as does “bunkers are meant to be penal”.  

Overall the membership is very happy with the changes.

Wayne:

With regard to the sand, it’s a matter of waiting for things to settle in and learning how to work with the moisture content and grooming practices.  With dry weather conditions, the sand tends to get very fluffy resulting in buried lies (unhappy members) and grooming problems.  The responses above work, but we are making an effort to get better at working with the bunkers.

Wayne, Mike, Eric and company.

What are your thoughts about the mounds found throughout the course?  They are a blue grass fescue mix.  They have been maintained with a height of cut that does not allow the fescue to get wispy.  We have started to experiment with a few of the mounds allowing them to grow.  The thought being to increasing the visual variety and provide a more penal situation in some areas (i.e. left side #2 and #18).  Again, we are on a curve here, but your thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

[TEPaul]

"Tom:
The “don’t hit it there” response usually works as does “bunkers are meant to be penal”."

Steve:

Oh really? In that case would you like to change memberships with me for the remainder of the year? I'll go to LuLu and you go to GMGC until Jan 1 2006 and see if you can convince my members to accept those explanations?  

[Steve Sayers]

Tom:

You must remember the bunkers prior to the restoration were dreadful!  It would be difficult if not impossible to find a member that wants to go back to the old bunkers even given the penal nature of the new bunkers.

The key to keeping the majority of the Lu Lu membership happy is green speed.  Keep the greens fast and most are willing to accept the condition of the rest of the course.

As for trading memberships give me a call and we can work out the details.

[TEPaul]

Steve:

What kind of grass have you got on those greens?

[Steve Sayers]

Tom:

Predominantly poa with some bent.

Green speeds will become a big issue in the next few weeks with the stress of summer.  This is a perfect time for me to move over to GM for the rest of the season!  Does your offer still stand?

[Kyle Harris]

Those greens gave me vertigo... oy  

[TEPaul]

Steve:

That's why I asked. If the membership keeps pushing for really fast greens at LuLu you guys better think about regrassing to one of the "A" strains---it's bacially stress free compared to what you have. If you push your greens too low and too fast and you do lose them though do not hesitate to regrass to one of the "A" strains. You will not regret it!

"Does your offer still stand?"

Sure, why not? But you'll have to learn how to be as big an eccentric as I am if you want to go over there. Do you really think you can handle that? I don't know, you seem like an upstanding and quite well adjusted fellow to me.  

[wsmorrison]

"What are your thoughts about the mounds found throughout the course?  They are a blue grass fescue mix.  They have been maintained with a height of cut that does not allow the fescue to get wispy.  We have started to experiment with a few of the mounds allowing them to grow.  The thought being to increasing the visual variety and provide a more penal situation in some areas (i.e. left side #2 and #18).  Again, we are on a curve here, but your thoughts and comments would be appreciated."

Steve,

I thought the mounding looked great, I especially liked the recent additions by Forse and Nagle.  It was balanced and not contrived.  Because there was some of it all over the course, it never looked out of place.  Althuogh identifiable as man-made, the shape and scale was very appealing.

As to the grassing, I think I hit one shot out of the mounds.  The ball was not sitting low in the grass and it was fairly easy to get out.  I remember Steve Shaffer hitting some good shots out of the mounds, especially the ones after he pushed right on nine.  Honestly, I didn't notice any fescue that was growing long and whispy.  I know that its hard to maintain the height and density of some fescues.  Mike McNulty at Philadelphia Country was experimenting with some between 18 and 10 and between 14 and 12.  He used besamid (sp) to get rid of the old stuff and recently planted golden fescue I think which he says he can control the height and density of really well.  It doesn't take long to grow in.  We'll see how it looks come Am qualifying.  I'll be there tomorrow and I'll ask him exactly what he's doing.  You might want to give him a call.

The clubs with A on the greens really look good this time of year, even in the heat and humidity we've gotten so early in the year.  If you don't fix ball marks early they seem to really show the marks for a long time.  At least that's how it is at my club with A-1/A-4 in equal mix. The ball repair tool is a foreign object at some places  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

As a new member, I wouln't mind seeing some taller fescue to the left of 2 and elsewhere throughout the course-perhaps the mounds to right of 8 and the adjoining 11 and to the right on 14.

The green speed issue is another story. The club posts green speed daily. About a month ago, posted speeds were 12.5 although I understand the actual was higher. On May 13 at the member guest, my guest had 7 birdies! He followed Ben Hogan's advice on how to become a better putter- he hit his irons closer to the hole! When he didn't, he 3 putted. Given the crowned greens, even a pin high shot was an adventure. Now the posted speeds are about 10. That's ok with me. I'm not sure the members would be willing to lose time at the course to regrass the greens with A4 and to go to that expense.

[Steve Sayers]

Tom:

Yes, regressing is the answer but simply stated the club is not in a position to take on the project.

Fortunately our superintendent (Todd Struse) does an outstanding job balancing the health of the greens and speed.  Todd knows when and how to push thing and when to deal with the reality of the situation and put the health of the grass first.  It’s a frustrating seasonal cycle and one many of the members don’t understand despite having been at Lu Lu for a number of years.  All they know (or care to know) is the greens were “perfect” in May and now (July & August) they are terrible.

We have Stan Zontek of the USGA Green Section coming out this July to help in the education process.

Wayne:

Thanks for the tip regarding Philly CC.

Steve:

Take a look, it is happening in a few areas.

[wsmorrison]

Steve,

What's wrong with the course playing differently at different times of year?  I'd spin it to the membership that it keeps things interesting and the ability to play under a variety of conditions is something that helps you to a stronger game over the long run.  Is that a stretch?  I guess so, but to guys like you and me it is something we can recognize and embrace.  

It is what it is...accept it and play on!

[Eric Pevoto]

Steve,

Like I told you Friday, I like the mounds (chocolate drops, dolomites, etc.) a lot.  As far as grassing, letting the fescue go tall with the bluegrass underlying it will make for a very penal situation.  It looks great, but is hellish to play out of.  As random as the mounds are, maybe this isn't a bad thing.  

Maybe you could pick and choose mounds, staying away from those that are most subject to irrigation.  

[Kyle Harris]

Eric, Steve, Wayne, et al,

As with most fescue areas, I feel it's ideal to keep the grass wispy and the under grass a bit clumpy, making a recovery a headache, but not an impossibility.

When I was there, Lulu seemed to have it right. I remember noting the area down the left side of 18 as being somewhat ideal, but can't say that I remember the stuff on the 2nd...

Was it behind the 5th green or nearer the 6th hole?

[Jason Mandel]

I have to admit after playing St. David's a couple of weeks ago I really miss that POA  

Those greens were so fast and so true it was really a joy to putt on them again. Its not that I don't love our Bent greens at white manor, especially the health of them, but theirs just something about those poa greens when they get fast, they are just so much fun to putt on.

Jason

[mike_malone]

 I thought the greens were great. For a humid late afternoon they had plenty of speed and smoothness to them. The new green could use some evergreen removal to the left.

[wsmorrison]

Which green is the new green?  I know many greens were extended to their former dimensions, but which one is new?  

Most people can't get inside that head of yours to know what the heck you're talking about.   Please provide a bit more information so it might be understandable.