Better late than never.

[TEPaul]

I think my favorite hole is getting to be #14 (a longish par 3).

Right from the very beginning this hole got my attention and ironically because its "visuals" are interesting to me as they’re so “dialed down” I never really picked up on how everything on that hole worked together to create the visual effect that hole has on me from the tee (I’ve had this preference in architecture for a couple of years that the landscape architecture principle of “Emphasis” (def; drawing the eye to the most important part) if that’s where you’re “supposed to hit the ball” should be minimized in some golf course architecture). I believe it’s far more interesting if golf architecture actually makes a golfer really study a hole or what’s in front of him to find its meaning for himself and to figure out what’s going on and how it should be played (strategy). (I had a most interesting phone conversation yesterday with Adam Foster Collins as to his thoughts on how this kind of thing applies to other areas of design or art).

When one stands on the tee of #14, a flatland hole, they see a long fairway area that merges right into the front of the green with no apparent demarcation from the tee. There’s a bunker right greenside and a very large fairway area to the left of the green that runs its entire length. From the tee this tends to make the whole look a lot bigger. The green is very long but it has a beautiful 45% diagonal on it with the fairway area that I doubt can be seen from the tee. C&C left some pine trees on the left and particularly one or two that stick out enough to give you the visual impression that you may even need to draw the ball some when you look at that fairway area to the left of the green (balances the bunker right well as a penal area right/safe area left).

But the thing I never did notice until the other day is this really low ridge that flows beautifully off the top of a small bunker that’s way short of the green left and all the way across that massive fairway run-up or approach area. What this low ridge across the fairway does is basically hide the rest of the fairway area between it and the front of the green (at least it does that from the tee for a guy of my height (6 ft).

I just love the way the entire hole is so visually dialed down as to what to do or what’s going on out there. This to me is a great example of how to remove the art principle of “emphasis” (draw the eye to the most important part if that means where you should hit the ball in golf) in a number of little subtle ways..

I’m sure not complaining but I think the visual effect could be even better if dialed down a bit more by not stripping that large fairway area left of the green. That would make it even less distinct from the green surface and the whole thing would be even cooler in my opinion.

Not just all that but there’s some really neat subtle movement in that green, particularly in the front section that cannot really be seen even when you’re within about 20-25 yards in front of it.

I’ll tell you if Bill Coore could throw a golf ball from about 50 yards and in he could give Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson a pretty good run for their money.

 

[Eric Pevoto]

Jim:  I'm not sure what it shows, other than some of us can putt! (I claim the 3! )

Pat:

I also noticed the problems with a level lie at the 9th (and the fact that many holes are harder than they look).  This was true on many holes.  I think you can owe it all to the subtle rolls of the fairways (few level lies) and challenging greens.

Jim spoke of the 18th (maybe on another thread) where we all had anywhere from 115 to 90 yards and the scores ranged from 3 to 6.  I caught the slot down the right side off the tee and had a little less than 90 yards in, but had a pretty good falling lie.  To boot, that green looks like it slants severely back to front (as much as any green out there) and made me think about spin, for some strange reason.

A blade (I asked Brad, my caddie if I made it to the parking lot), a chip, a chip, and 2 putts later I'm writing 6.  Easy hole.

[mike_malone]

 Don't want to threadjack on the "redan" definition, but my understanding is that it comes from a word for "armament" or"fortress", with the defining feature being that it is above the battlefield. Maybe that is wrong.

  (The following is an edit)

 I just read George Bahto's Feature Interview explanation of "redan".  It is helpful.
  Can't imagine "storming" something down hill.

   

[TEPaul]

"Interesting note; our group, if you recall Eric, made a two, a three, a four and a five. With a slight helping wind to a benign pin position (middle/middle), I wonder if this spread is indicative of the holes challenge."

It certainly does show something. It shows the "Bob Crosby Scoring Spectrum Barometer"! If the scoring spectrum is wide the hole is generally good and interesting!    

(If you haven't noticed it before, we on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com create names and terms for most everything one can think of in golf architecture.)  

[George Pazin]

Tom P -

That's interesting to me that you would choose the 14th as one of your favorites. (It was certainly our group's best hole, we all parred it!) I would guess that most golfers would miss most of the interesting elements of the hole you cite. My favorite thing about the hole is the way the greens melts into its surrounds.

Mayday -

I didn't mean to nitpick. Certainly in the strictest sense, #4 is not A redan. But I think it is okay to describe it to someone who hasn't played it as redanish, as it conveys the green angle and slope, as well as the bunkering.

[Eric Pevoto]

Tom P,

The king of "dialing down the visuals" has to be #1!  The fairway has to be 100 yards wide, yet on first play it felt like there was really nothing immediate or specific at which to aim.  Strange.  Interesting, but strange.  I don't think I've played too many holes like it.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Our group started on # 10 and here is my observation....

Driver - 8 iron.

I actually hit through the green and made a hell of a 4 from the back edge.  I guess I should have hit 9.

 

[JESII]

Tom Paul,

I was thinking along the lines of that "Crosby Scoring Spectrum" without actually knowing it was already an established scientific formula for determining quality, glad I asked . Not that one round with three partners is enough evidence to support the theory, but looking at the hole afterwards, what we did seems like it could be a very common occurrance. It is just a 125 yard shot, so birdie is obviously very attainable, and there are some places around the green that become extremely difficult to actually get ones first chip onto the green, hence five is also a very distinct possibility. Like many of the holes at Hidden Creek, #11 has a very understated quality that makes someone want to play the hole over and over. That's a pretty good thing IMO.

Mike Malone

I thought I heard the same thing about the term "redan" having a military connotation, but if my memory serves me there was a fair bit of opposition to that. I'll go re-check GB's interview. Don't you think the actual green surrounds constitute enough elevation increase to carry most of the 'missed-green' situations you have on a prototypical "redan"?

[Eric Pevoto]

Mike Nuzzo,

In my best Matt Ward, "veerrryy astute observation, mi amigo."  

I'm guessing the back of that green got a lot of action.  I'm proud of my two putt.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

Don't want to threadjack on the "redan" definition, but my understanding is that it comes from a word for "armament" or"fortress", with the defining feature being that it is above the battlefield. Maybe that is wrong.

I just read George Bahto's Feature Interview explanation of "redan".  It is helpful.
 
Can't imagine "storming" something down hill.

Would you call your charge at the green from 40 yards away, flat, downhill or uphill ?

How is the famous AWT Redan at Somerset Hills configured ?
[/color]
   

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

The word redan does have a military derivation or source. However the reason that term is used in golf has a more complex etymology so there's no particular reason the hole has to look like some military fortification (eg playing uphill. A military "redan" actually has some form of prong structure as its primary defensive design). However, I think the best of them do play to an uphill green (Piping Rock), but most of them are on a level wth the tee or even downhill. The golf architectural link to the term redan pretty much connotes a "kicker"---often just front right or left of the green entrance but sometimes on the green surface itself like Somerset Hills or Hidden Creek.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

How do CBM's and SR's Redans at The Creek and Yale play from the tee ?

Downhill to the green  

TEPaul,

I thought a critical aspect of a "Redan" feature, in military terms was that soldiers could hide behind the fronting shoulder of the embankment without being seen from the approaching positions.

[Michael Moore]

A redan is a three-sided fortification forming a salient angle towards an expected attack.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I thought a critical aspect of a "Redan" feature, in military terms was that soldiers could hide behind the fronting shoulder of the embankment without being seen from the approaching positions."

Did you say hide? Did you actually SAY HIDE? Patrick, MY GOD MAN---SOLDIERS don't HIDE!! If you think that you get the hell out of this man's army right now! REAL SOLDIERS attack and when they're finished attacking they attack some more if they're REAL SOLDIERS!

HIDE??? What do you think this is some CHILD'S GAME of "HIDE and GO SEEK"??

[Mike_Cirba]

It's a 3/4 redan, or something like that.

[Mike_Cirba]

It is just a 125 yard shot, so birdie is obviously very attainable, and there are some places around the green that become extremely difficult to actually get ones first chip onto the green, hence five is also a very distinct possibility.

Especially when the chipper in question is a left-hander with a possessed wedge.  

[TEPaul]

Michael Moore:

It's a common old everyday PRONG---don't go giving me this sophisticated of "salient angles" stuff. You can even use old no longer popular 1 irons for the prongs---every bit as effective as a "salient angle" for preventing the enemy from getting in.

"It's a 3/4 redan, or something like that."

Mike Cirba:

I doubt you could get Mayday Malone to go that far but try negotiating with him---maybe you can get him to admit it's a 5/16ths redan.

[Billsteele]

A couple of things struck me about #9 (our starting hole). The first was how the series of bunkers on the right leading to the green are angled to narrow the fairway the closer one gets to the ultimate target. The last bunker on the right masks a good portion of the right side of the green. There is also a subtle bit of psychology present because because the same bunker  appears from most approach shots to be hugging the front of the putting surface when in fact there is plenty of room behind it between the hazard and the green. The green complex at #9 hugs the ground and the transition from fairway to putting surface is virtually seamless. One of the things I loved about Hidden Creek is that there are openings at every greensite to take advantage of the ground game. Most of my shots from within ten yards of the greens were using a putter. What a delight! This is a course that does not overwhelm one visually but subtly reveals itself to be an interesting , fair and enjoyable test of golf...and what terrific greensites! I want to thank Pat Mucci for putting the effort into this informative and fun event. It was great to meet everyone.

[TEPaul]

Billsteele:

Bill Coore was telling Jeff Riggs that he'd like to see him take the fairway chipping area behind #9 green about two paces inside the bar but Jeff said although he could do that for increased recovery options he felt if they ever sprayed the grass in there it might be deleterious to someone's health over time. I was very sorry to hear that---I thought Bill's recommendation was great as ususal.

[TEPaul]

Here's an interesting little tid-bit that slipped by me right from the beginning about the clubhouse at Hidden Creek. I was down there one time with Brad Klein, Roger and Bill Coore before the course was even cleared and Roger was talking about this CAFRA problem and how the clubhouse pretty much had to be where it is. It was my understanding that Bill Coore always wanted to move it back a little or something. I guess I thought he wanted to do something like put the 9th green where the clubhouse is now. I was almost going to stand up and tell Roger that his new clubhouse is really pretty but Bill still wants to move it. I'm sure glad I didn't. I didn't realize until the other day what the CAFRA problem was---which is they're restricted to a limited amount of impervious surface (paved area) on that site and so the clubhouse had to be very near the entrance to the property.

Anyone know where Bill Coore really wanted to put that clubhouse?

[Geoffrey Childs]

TEPaul

I thought he wanted the clubhouse next to the "Hidden Creek" so that he could dam it and make a waterfall in the dining room.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It's called the element of surprise, like when a putt of yours actually goes in the hole.