How many courses have been markedly improved since 1940?

[Mike_Cirba]

On the Master Plan thread, one contingent likes flexibility built into Master Plans so as not to restrict or tie the hands of subsequent committees.  Thus, they would be free to move a bunker here, add a tree there, soften a green or two, etc., all as they deem necessary in their collective wisdom at the time.

Sounds reasonable enough, right?

In that spirit, it occurs to me that I can't really think of too many courses built before, say 1930 that changed significantly for the better after 1940.  I guess Turnberry comes to mind, but it was dug up in the war and who exactly knows what pre-war Turnberry was like anyway?

Perhaps Prairie Dunes with the addition of nine holes...

So, right away, I'd like to discount those who bring up modern restorations into the mix as some sort of long-term "improvement".  If the intent of a master-planned restoration was to strip away 70 years of ill-advised green committee changes, that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about a solid set of well-conceived and executed changes to a golf course over some decades that arrived at a course markedly different than the original, and significantly better.

Let's have at it.  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

This question of course leads to a debate on Augusta National. Unfortunately, I have no modicum of comparison to the present day course, which I happen to like... As indicated by the past two years, the course still seems to have a lot of strategic merit when the Masters committee puts the holes in the right spots on Sunday.

The architecture has changes over the years, and I think most of it was for the better.

[PThomas]

a tough one Mike

tree clearing like at Oakmont doesn't fit your definition, and neither do total redesigns like MPCC's Stanz course .....

[rgkeller]

Seminole

[ian]

Mike,

Depending on your definition on what improvement actually means, there are many who would argue that Oakland Hills is a superior golf course today. Augusta National is another that fits that same definition.

Pebble Beach (new 5th)
Pinehurst #2 (evolution of the greens?)
Lahinch?

So is this what we feel personally, or is there a definition to what makes an improved golf course? Every golf course is in better condition, because turf management has come leaps and bounds in this time frame.

What about the courses that have used Master planning just to add a few back tees (to deal with technology), removed trees for playability 9to deal with growth), and restored a few features (to restore history). They are improved (with a Master Plan), but the change is subtle; Master Plan's are usually not about sweeping change.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I'd say very few.

Paul Thomas,

WHO do you think planted all of those trees that have only recently been cut down, and WHEN do you think they were planted, especially the ones that are 50 and 60 years old ?  

[rgkeller]

>>WHEN do you think they were planted, especially the ones that are 50 and 60 years old ?<<

Fifty and sixty years ago?

[PThomas]

Hi Pat -- well, I know that Oakmont  is more than 60 years old...after checking I find it was built on 1904

GD's 100 Greatest Golf Courses and Then Some (82 version) continues:  the original version " had eight par 5s and a par 6. [!!!!!]  Soon his [Henry Fownes'] son WIlliam took over and began a lifetime project of revising the course with the avowed intention of creating the toughest in the world."

so whether or not Oakmont is a yes answer to Mike's question, I have no idea!

it is one of the coures I would LOVE to see someday, esp with most of the trees gone

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I can think of no old Southern California course that has improved since 1940.  This will separate the philosophy of many here, old pure golf, played on natural settings vs. today's belief that length and rough make for a better course.  This is a good topic and I hope many put in their two cents.  But as has been mentioned the length it takes for a golf shot to end was interesting and dropped too soon.  If a ball rolling and bouncing along the ground and ending near the hole doesn't make your golfing group laugh in enjoyment, then you need to think about changing groups.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Enniscrone is a great call Sean.  I played in 2000 just before the new holes opened.  They looked really nice over excellent linksland (I think I posted a picture many years ago). The old #'s 1 and 2 and finishing hole were VERY bland and the new ones must be a substantial improvement.

I would also include Cannamara (the end of the earth golf club as I like to refer it) as the 6 new holes I saw before opening looked pretty good as well.

Are the new holes in the dunes at Rosapana a substitute for the old back nine?  If so then they too would make for a better 18 hole course.

Looks like Ireland is the spot for improving old courses.

[ForkaB]

With certainty, Dornoch and Portsalon.

Very possibly, the Dunes and Shore courses at MPCC.

I am sure there are others.

[RJ_Daley]

Eastlake, Medinah, Olympia Fields, all Bendelow originals it seems...

[Patrick_Mucci]

>>WHEN do you think they were planted, especially the ones that are 50 and 60 years old ?<<

Fifty and sixty years ago?

Great observation.

Which means that they were planted after 1940 by the same club that's cutting them down.

Better late than never.[/color]

[Lynn_Shackelford]

RJ Daly

Not so fast on Eastlake.  While Brad Klein would agree with you, I think Bob Crosby, who played it often years ago, may need to weigh in.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Before I even think about this question, let me ask you one. How do you know what any golf course was like in 1940??

[Mike_Cirba]

MikeC:

Before I even think about this question, let me ask you one. How do you know what any golf course was like in 1940??

Tom,

I'm a LOT older than I look!  

Mike  

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:  I'd like to believe we improved Atlantic City and Onwentsia, though we did those projects in one swoop.

Generally, though, I don't think many golf courses are improved through tinkering, because the basic quality of a golf course is based on two things:

a)  the routing, which is hard to change in pieces, and
b)  the greens contouring, which is hard to change subtly, especially with USGA construction methods insisting that the entire thing be rebuilt at $50K per green.

The best evolution of a golf course of which I know is Rye ... even though all of the work was done by 1940, Colt, Simpson, Sir Guy Campbell, and a club member all contributed one or more of the best holes on the course.  But that was a sand-dune site where building a new hole was easy.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

I agree--I think Atlantic City C.C. is a lot improved. I never saw it in 1940 though--first saw it around 1985.

[RJ_Daley]

Lynn, somewhere along the line I saw some old photos of the Bendelow version of Eastlake (formerly Atlanta Athletic Club).  The routing had been completely revised by Ross and I dare say improved from its rudimentary original.  Whether it was improved from Ross's is I think more controversial than the first upgrade from Bende's.  And, like Pat says above, I never played it now or 40 years ago...

[brad_miller]

Has anyone seen the "new Waterville"?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Sean

That's good news about Enniscrone. The old holes 1 and 2 were very bland.

I think the northwest of Ireland needs some advertising help as its flat out the most beautiful place I've ever played golf. Carne, Donagal, Portsalon, Rosapana, Cannamara, Rosses Point and Ballylifin can't be beat for hospitality, beauty and good links golf.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I know you probably aren't thinking in these terms, but I'll bet every course has been improved technically since the 40's by the superintendent.  As we have discussed, those courses were often sorely underengineered, and supers and gca's have been adding drainage, soil enhancements, irrigation (well, sometimes too much is a good thing) cart paths (you decide) etc..  

As an example, Riviera had large flood control pipes put under the barancas, which changed the 8th hole,  but certainly had to improve the course.

[Mike_Young]

Too many to name but I assume you are speaking of the top 1 percent of the 16000 out there.  But if not I would say at least 2000 have markedly improved.  Wait...I don't know how many existed in 1939 but I would assume say 5000-6000.  So maybe 1500 have improved.

[RJ_Daley]

Say Mike, do you know which archie upgraded Ran's home course, Southern Pines?  I see C&W list Mitchel as a remodeller.  Yet, I think another more recent upgrade took place after Mitchel, and it is not listed as to which archie worked on that course last.  

In playing that old Ross course a few times, it is apparent that tweaking and change of green shapes and bunker design took place on some holes.  One only has to look at what they call the "little nine" that is rudimentary and unremodelled (excluding allowing bunkers to grow in with turf), and not well maintained, to see that if the big 18 holes were originally anything like the little nine, that a definite improvement was made.  Although, I'm pretty sure the one triangular green at #2 or 3 hole was radically softened and reshaped, including the bunkers guarding the green front.

[Sean Leary]

How about Eugene CC, since RTJ basically rerouted the holes to play in reverse  from the original...

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