[Voytek Wilczak]

www.libertynationalgc.com

The new website has a wealth of info and looks like a sales pitch. Maybe they have a bit of a problem attracting membership at half a mil US a pop.

Can I ask you guys to critique the course design, which is described in detail in the Golf Course section of the website (including a hole-by-hole pdf file)?

The course is half parkland and half links, and yes, is supposed to have a waterfall...

[Jeff_Mingay]

Quite dramatic, eh. So much so, I was turned off  

[rgkeller]

www.libertynationalgc.com

The new website has a wealth of info and looks like a sales pitch. Maybe they have a bit of a problem attracting membership at half a mil US a pop.

Can I ask you guys to critique the course design, which is described in detail in the Golf Course section of the website (including a hole-by-hole pdf file)?

The course is half parkland and half links, and yes, is supposed to have a waterfall...

If they had gotten Doak to do the course, they could have charged the $700K that Sebonack is looking for.

[Voytek Wilczak]

It seems to me that the whole concept of Liberty National is deeply flawed.

Do you really want to play golf where you work (close to Manhattan), or do you want to escape to a golf course and change the scenery?

These jaded Wall Street guys are looking at the buildings and the Statue of Liberty all the time and it is no big deal. Seems like an outsider came up with this concept.

If I were one of Wall Street golfers I would be begging Messieurs Bakst and Pascucci to take my money; not Mr Fireman. I would take a short 'copter flight to eastern LI from Manhattan every few days (no dent in my budget). There the golf courses are magical - and would take my mind off my work.

[Jfaspen]

Quite dramatic, eh. So much so, I was turned off  

Yea.. I wasn't quite sure.. is there any opportunity to see the statue of liberty?  it wasn't made clear enough in the material.

That clubhouse looks like something I would wanna visit one time and then forget.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Quite dramatic, eh. So much so, I was turned off  

Yea.. I wasn't quite sure.. is there any opportunity to see the statue of liberty?  it wasn't made clear enough in the material.

You can see the Statue from pretty much every hole. It is only 1000 yards away from a few holes, or so. The course was designed to take advantage of the views of Manhattan, the Statue, and the Verrazano bridge.

I would love to get the comments from the cognoscenti on the layout. The site is subject to strong, prevaling North-Easterly winds which could play havoc with the golf ball.

Tacky web site and all, I do believe that Bob Cupp gave it his best to design a good test given the location, the prospective clientele and the wind.

[Matt_Ward]

Voytek:

Do not underestimate the nature of what developer & architect Eric Bergstol are doing at Liberty National.

Can I suggest that waiting until the course opens is the more prudent thing to do before "spinning" the debate in earnest in any number of directions -- some fair and some much less so?

[Voytek Wilczak]

Voytek:

Do not underestimate the nature of what developer & architect Eric Bergstol are doing at Liberty National.

Can I suggest that waiting until the course opens is the more prudent thing to do before "spinning" the debate in earnest in any number of directions -- some fair and some much less so?

Matt - your suggestion of patience is a good one. I just thought that since the detailed layout and the hole-by-hole pdf have been published, some (preliminary) opinions on the layout can be solicited.

BTW - the designer of Liberty National is Bob Cupp - Eric Bergstol is doing the neighboring Bayonne Golf Club.

Over and out.

[Eric Pevoto]

What the f.....?  Holy earth moving!

Too much.  I don't even know where to start.  Is it by chance an old landfill?  One clip of the seagulls flying over made me think that.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Layout:

[Mike_Cirba]

I like the concepts of the 12th & 17th, and the fact that the 9th doesn't return to the clubhouse.

Bu

[Voytek Wilczak]

Is it by chance an old landfill?  

The site is an old industrial land (not a landfill), flat as a pancake and partially contaminated with hydrocarbons from old oil processing plants. They had to remove some of that stuff and put at least 6 feet of new fill over the whole site; in some areas as high as 50 feet, average maybe 10-12 feet. This course is sculpted entirely by human hand, much like Bergstol's Bayonne.

I like the little 14, lofty comparisons to the Postage Stamp and Pebble's seventh on their website notwithstanding.

Wind blows from the direction of the open ocean most of the time, making this hole play primarily downwind. But strong westerly winds may force the player to hang the tee-shot almost OB over the sea-wall on the right and let the wind bring it back.

Interesting little hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Voytek:

Mea culpa / re: Liberty National. I've been to the sites of both courses and there's plenty of work ahead on both.

Clearly, having two 18-hole layouts in Hudson County makes for some exciting times ahead.

[igrowgrass]

Does a clubhouse that big add to this place at all?  It seems to me that it could possibly take away from the golf course and all the other outside buildings they are trying to use as the backdrop.

[Tom_Doak]

The best golf holes are made by the sort of features that don't show up on a map like that.

But, Mike C., why do you like the concept of #12?  Just because there is a split fairway?  Looks to me like if you aim toward the left side you could pretty easily pull the tee shot into oncoming traffic on #8.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Looks like it will be a wonderful club.  I love the line that says "Mr. Fireman will create a club for the golfing elite of NY".
   Did Mr. Fireman ever succeed in becoming part of the golfing elite in Boston?

[Voytek Wilczak]

Matt Ward:

Since you visited both sites, which concept/location/layout do you like better? Seems like Bayonne will be a true Ballybunion-like links with 60-foot "dunes" and a traditional, quaint clubhouse.

Liberty National will be a parkland/links hybrid, with over-the-top clubhouse and better location/views of Manhattan and the Statue.

Mike Cirba and Tom Doak: regarding the 12th at Liberty National - I noticed on the layout that the tee shot from the back tees will be going over a busy street (Chapel Avenue) leading to a housing development east of the course. Same with Number 9. How the heck is that possible? Both 12 and 9 tees look like they will be greatly (maybe 20 feet) elevated compared to the street level, but still...

I cannot imagine (due to potential liability) that members could be hitting shots like that.

[Matt_Ward]

Voytek:

I have to hold back with any other comments until I have played both.

You see that "talent" is done by others here on GCA who attempt to "pre"-spin the debate before the doors open of a course.

I know there is serious money at work with both sites. For the benefit of golf it's good to see regulation courses in Hudson County, NJ.

The downside is that the public will have very limited access to either of them.

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