How many courses have been markedly improved since 1940?

[Jack_Marr]

Geoffrey

The new first at Enniscrone is very clever.  You tee off in a flat area heading towards the dunes, but don't get the sense that the dunes will come in play right away.  Then after rounding the slight dogleg, the green comes in sight right in the dunes.  It is majestic.  In fact, the course is excellent.  Loads of variety.  Some bang and blame holes mixed with funky holes.  I am not sure why more people aren't heading this way for the further delights of Carne and Donegal. Not to mention Rosses Point (which I thought was runt of the litter!).  

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

Honestly, I don't know if there is a better course in Ireland than Enniscrone. The first is kind of the reverse of the 18th; you hit into the dunes on the first and you hit out of them on the 18th.

[Bill Gayne]

I never played the course before 1940 but a possible candidate may be Bethpage Black. Maybe some of those with great knowledge of Bethpage history can offer comment.

[Andy Doyle]

Has anyone seen the "new Waterville"?

I played Waterville last November - first time, so I can't compare to anything before.  It is newer still - they had #8 and 9 all torn up with major work they were doing.

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[Michael Moore]

Perhaps Prairie Dunes with the addition of nine holes...

To me going from nine holes to eighteen holes is an unequivocal improvement.

Too many to name this morning . . .

[BCrosby]

Just caught up with this thread.

East Lake does not belong on the list. Originally by Bendelow, it was totally redone by Ross in 1923. Other than turf conditions, the current course is not as good as the 1940 version.

There were a large number of Ross courses built in the South in the '20's on shoestring budgets. Mostly by crews that didn't know what they were doing.

Courses from that group that escaped the tender mercies of renovation architects in the '60's or 70's are possibly better now than they were in 1940.

Timaquana comes to mind as a possibility.

But there aren't many. At least not in the US.

Bob

[Andy Doyle]

Bob,

Would you mind giving some more detail on your opinion of East Lake?

I moved to Atlanta in 1993, right when Tom Cousins bought the place and started the remodel/rehab/renovation.  I've always been impressed with the overall project.  In addition to renovating the course he largely rebuilt the surrounding neighborhood - demolition of crime-ridden public housing, addition of nice mixed income housing, charter school, family YMCA, even the construction of a public executive course.

I was also impressed with his philosophy of making it a walking only course and returning to the use of caddies.

I've been fortunate to have played it twice (in 2002 and 2003) and walked it during the Tour Championship, but I don't have any real basis of comparison to what is was before.  In fact, I can't recall ever seeing or reading what specific changes to the course were made by Rees Jones.

What should I look for when I get to walk the property again this fall at the Tour Championship?

Andy

[BCrosby]

Andy -

First about Cousin's efforts in the neighborhood. They are truly remarkable. I have assisted with a number of those projects in a number of different capacities and they seem to be making a real difference. Most have centered around the Drew School and the Charlie Yates Course, both next door to EL. I don't know of a project like it. I am very proud to be associated with Tom Cousins' out-reach efforts and hope to continue helping in any way I am able.

Second, on a purely architectural level, I believe that Rees Jones' work at EL diminished the quality of the course. It was advertised as a restoration in the "spirit" of Ross because they said Ross's original drawings no longer existed. Which is correct. But with modest efforts they could have obtained any number or aerials of EL from the 20's, 30's, 40's and on to the present. What Ross's EL looked like was no mystery. What is revealing is that Rees tried to make it a mystery.

Thus the cover story used to justify changes to the course had little merit.

What were the objectional changes?

- The installation of fronting bunkers and increased green heights on seveal holes, combining to force pure aerial approaches;
- The lengthening of the 5th to a par 5 which doesn't play that way for better golfers, done at the expense of moving the tee on 8 forward and thus removing what I thought was a wonderfully difficult driving choice - laying short of the left side bunker or blowing it over it. Now everyone blows it over it. (BTW, the Ross 8th was a 230 yard par 3. In the aerials, a wonderful hole.)
- The conversion of 10 from one of the best par fours in the city to a mediocre par 5 that plays as a par 4 in the Tour Championship. I simply can't grasp what Rees could have been thinking on 10. I would like to know. I really would.
- The relocation of the 17th green from a knob on the right to the low spot next to the lake. The old, crested green was tough to hold, even with a lofted club and putting was a real challenge. That's where the Ross green was.

Too many people rave about the new EL because the conditoning is so much better. And it is. Millions have been spent on turf and maintenace. But the old girl, even without her make-up, had better bones back before Rees. I miss her.

Bob

[Andy Doyle]

Bob:

Thanks for your comments.  I have a real affinity for Bobby Jones and East Lake and have followed the East Lake story ever since I've moved here.  I live about 5 miles from there and play most of my golf at Charlie Yates.  It must feel good to have been involved with what is more of a transformation of a neighborhood than a renovation.

Interesting comments about the 5th and 10th - when I played there neither "felt" like a par 5, now I know why.  When I played #10 I pushed my drive over to the right, which at that time allowed a recovery shot at the green, but was a blind shot.  Now it looks like they have planted a bunch of trees over there to block that possibility.  I thought #9 was a great par 5, though.

Moving 17 green doesn't seem to make much sense, particularly since they didn't move it close enough to the lake to bring the water into play.

Have you seen the new back, back, back tee they put in on #6?  It looks pretty silly - a tiny little spot of grass protruding into the lake just off the maintenance road.  I can't see them ever using it - even those guys aren't that good.

Andy

[BCrosby]

Andy -

I happened to be playing EL the week they put the new tee in at the 6th. At the time the notion was they would use it on alternate days at the Tour Championship.

Everyone who has seen it has a "what were they thinking" reaction. It would make the 6th the hardest, most penal, least intersting hole ever devised. Truly breathtaking.

A 220 - 230 yard par three to an island green along its narrowest axis. No wider than about 30 feet I would guess. Anything slightly short, wide left, wide right or long is wet. Over the part of the course most exposed to wind. Nutty.

You don't know whether to laugh or cry when you consider that the PGA set up the tee and then decided not to use it in the Tour Chanmpionship last Fall. It's like hitting yourself with a hammer and then congratulating yourself for having the intelligence to stop.

The proposed 6th symbolizes for me the extent to which people who set up courses for pro tournaments are rattled by the distances they hit it. You don't set up a tee like that unless you are desperate and have lost your bearings.

Bob

[Andy Doyle]

Bob,

Yes, desperate and then foolish.

I didn't think #6 played that easy to begin with - particularly with any kind of wind blowing.  Desperate is right - were they thinking they would inject some kind of Sawgrass #17 drama?

Then how foolish - after the media talked up the new tee all week it quickly became apparent the tee was ridiculous and there was no way they were going to use it.  I heard the head pro went out the week before the tournament with a couple of bags of range balls & couldn't hit the green.

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[Bill_McBride]

Along with the cross bunkers and raised greens Bob mentions, the conversion to zoyzia grass has really pretty much eliminated roll at East Lake.  Too bad, that was undoubtedly the basis of the game there when Ross remodeled it and Jones was a member.

[Mike_Cirba]

Say Mike, do you know which archie upgraded Ran's home course, Southern Pines?  I see C&W list Mitchel as a remodeller.  Yet, I think another more recent upgrade took place after Mitchel, and it is not listed as to which archie worked on that course last.  

In playing that old Ross course a few times, it is apparent that tweaking and change of green shapes and bunker design took place on some holes.  One only has to look at what they call the "little nine" that is rudimentary and unremodelled (excluding allowing bunkers to grow in with turf), and not well maintained, to see that if the big 18 holes were originally anything like the little nine, that a definite improvement was made.  Although, I'm pretty sure the one triangular green at #2 or 3 hole was radically softened and reshaped, including the bunkers guarding the green front.

RJ,

The archie who did the revisions to Southern Pines was John LaFoy.

I was travelling with a group and never got to see the old nine, but I suspect it was never much of a highlight to begin with.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Sorry to be late posting on this thread. I checked into the question. It took somt time to get the correct answer.

3,722 courses have been improved since 1940. For those who may be interested, an additional 4,040 were improved since 1974.

It is a bit more difficult to ascertain how many have been "markedly improved." The information I have says 2,995 since 1940 and an additional 2,000 (approximate) since 1974.

[Ari Techner]

How about Eugene CC, since RTJ basically rerouted the holes to play in reverse  from the original...

That is one example I came up with also.  I was not around to see the original H. Chandler Egan course but the new RTJ backwards routing is a definite improvement according to all the older members I have talked to.  (although the old course was supposed to be a fine course in its own right)  

[Jack_Marr]

Jack

The flow of Enniscrone is superb.  Great use of seaside dunes on both flanks of the course.  I am not convinced that the big guns of Ireland are better than Enniscrone.  I need more games around Ballybunion, Portrush, Co. Down and Lahinch.  I certainly think Enniscrone is better than any other big gun in Ireland.  I also liked Carne a load, but the routing is not nearly as clever as Enniscrone.  

Ciao

Sean

Actually, a friend of mine played the two Ballybunions recently and prefered the new course by far. He would also rate Enniscrone and Rosses Point far above Old Ballybunion. That's just one man's opinion, though.

[Jack_Marr]

Hi Sean

Yes, I agree. The greenfees have already gone up in the northwest, but they are still very managable. It looks like there is going to be a lot of developmnet out that way soon. There's a new course being built in Leitrim, Faldo's island and a new nine in Carne.  I hope Faldo's project isn't exclusive, but who knows.

Jack