Bland Canadian Golf Courses

[Bryan Izatt]

A couple of days ago in another thread, Robert Thompson posted:

"The most hysterical thing about the Scotsman story is that the writer took the Planet Golf ratings at face value and notes that Scotland's golf total only trailed Canada.
Of course, there are dozens of Golf Digest raters in Canada that vote on best new course in Canada, which may explain why so many  bland Canadian tracks ended up on the list. Of course there's some good ones too.... but only a couple compare with the best in the world."

According to Oxford bland means: "lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting".

How can it be said that any of the following are uninteresting!  They each have their merits and short-comings, but bland is hardly one of them.

1. National G.C., Woodbridge, Ontario
2. St. George's G. & C.C., Islington, Ontario
3. Hamilton G. & C.C., Ancaster, Ontario
4. Beacon Hall G.C., Aurora, Ontario
5. Highlands Links, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia
6. Redtail G.C., Port Stanley, Ontario
7. Capilano G.C., West Vancouver, British Columbia
8. Royal Montreal G.C. (Blue), Ile Bizard, Quebec
9. Greywolf G.C., Panorama, British Columbia
10. Banff Springs G.C. (Stanley Thompson), Alberta
11. Angus Glen G.C. (South), Markham, Ontario
12. Lynx at Kingswood Park, Fredericton, New Brunswick
13. Fox Harb'r Golf Resort & Spa, Wallace, Nova Scotia

We could certainly argue for other Canadian courses that could be on this list.  And, we could argue the merits of Scottish courses versus Canadian courses, but it is very hard to see how anyone could say that any of these courses lack strong features or characteristics and therefore are uninteresting.

I happen to be a big fan of Scottish links courses because of the  hard and fast ground they are played on, the quirkiness of the bounces and lies, the pot bunkers, the winds and the green complexes.  However, I do appreciate our Canadian courses - the best of which I think are comparable to the world's best that I've seen.  How many, and which ones, and whether they're within some artificial number of points of some other is a fools game.

But to say that many of the best here, even the ones on this list, are bland must be hyperbole.

[Kirk Gill]

Having played Banff Springs prior to the recent remodel, I can state unequivocally that "bland" is not a term to describe the experience.

On a somewhat related note - speaking of Canadian golf, and the desire to avoid the bland, I am traveling to the Niagara Falls area with my family early this summer and would like to investigate the courses in the area. There's Whirlpool, Legends, Niagara Falls Golf Club...........

Is there one of these that stands above the rest, or another suggestion that anyone might have to offer?

[henrye]

I'm with you Brian.  Having only played 6 on the list, they are all strong courses.  My guess is that Robert isn't overly keen on some of the newer courses like Kingswood and Fox Harb'r making the list, but it's tough for me to say as I haven't played those.

[Matthew MacKay]

I think Robert was merely pointing out that at least few of the courses listed likely don't belong anywhere near a top 100 World List and are certainly bland when compared with others on and not on the list.

For example, Angus Glen is a dime a dozen here in the GTA, let alone Canada.

[ed_getka]

I haven't played any golf up in Canada, but I saw an article about the Whistler area courses, that didn't seem too appealing, but then there was an ad following the article that showed Predator Ridge (in the Okangan Valley?) that looked intriguing. Anybody been there?

[Jim Johnson]

I haven't played any golf up in Canada, but I saw an article about the Whistler area courses, that didn't seem too appealing, but then there was an ad following the article that showed Predator Ridge (in the Okangan Valley?) that looked intriguing. Anybody been there?

Ed,
Predator Ridge could be termed "target golf". It was designed to be a "links-style" layout (now 27 holes); not sure if they pulled it off. A Les Furber design, it hosted the Canadian Skins Game several years, which included Phil Mickelson and Sergio Garcia, and Sergio being so impressed with the place, supposedly bought a condo there, on the spot.
Check out their website...
www.predatorridge.com

JJ

[Cliff Hamm]

Interested if anyone has played the Lynx at Kingswood Park.  It was named best new Canadian course and GD ranks it #79 for courses outside the United States.  Greens fee during the summer are $75.  I'm not sure of the current exchange rate, but I suspect that puts it at $55-60.  This sounds like one of the great bargains in golf.  

[Matthew MacKay]

Cliff, for what it's worth, a recent ranking of Canada's best public courses put Kingswood at #40.  

[ian]

Just my opinion:

Worth a trip north

2. St. George's G. & C.C., great
3. Hamilton G. & C.C., great
5. Highlands Links, spectacular
7. Capilano G.C., quite good
10. Banff Springs G.C. great
    Toronto Golf
    Jaspar Park

Not worth a trip

1. National G.C - average
4. Beacon Hall G.C., very average
6. Redtail G.C., average
8. Royal Montreal G.C. - dull
9. Greywolf G.C., average
11. Angus Glen G.C. average
12. Lynx at Kingswood Park, don't know
13. Fox Harb'r Golf Resort & Spa, average

[ed_getka]

J,
   Thanks for the feedback, but I don't care for website hornblowing, I'm more interested what the guys from this site think. What did you like or not like about the course? Its obviously not links, and reminds me of Kingsley Club right off the top of my head. How are the greens? The one in the ad looked pretty flat, but it is just half of one green.

Ian,
     Thanks for the feedback. What project that you have  been involved with would you say is most worth seeing?

[Jim Johnson]

Ed,
Predator Ridge is target style golf, which I am not a big fan of, so cannot rate it as one of my favs.
There is definitely contour in some of the greens; one that I recall has 2 levels, one about 4 or 5 feet above the other.
Other reviews I have read seem to favour the two older nines more than the one newest nine.

JJ

[Jeff_Mingay]

ed,

I have to chime in here, only to say that Predator Ridge is nothing like Kingsley Club.

That's my .02 for tonite  

[ian]

Ed,

I assume you mean new courses only.

From our firm, go see Eagle's Nest, what Doug and Cam created was excellent. Fun to play.

(That I worked on) Osprey Valley (Heathlands), while a faux links as Jeff Mingay called it, the interest on and around the greens is much superior to any of the work that followed (1993).


Bryan,

"However, I do appreciate our Canadian courses - the best of which I think are comparable to the world's best that I've seen."

I hate to say this but very few Canadian courses compare to the greats of the world. St. George's and Highlands deserve there rightful status, but Hamilton, Jaspar and Banff are borderline at best (for the Golf world top 100). The National, Toronto and others do not compare to the great courses of the world, and should not make a 100 list of courses not in the US. I've played 10 courses in Scotland and England which I would immediately take over the National or Toronto. The world is a big place when you look at Ireland, Australia, England, Scotland, Belgium, and others. The only advantage we have is conditioning, which has nothing to do with great architecture or a great golf course.

This is not am inferiority complex, there is simply better architecture elsewhere than Canada.

[Matthew MacKay]

Ian, I'd be curious about your thoughts on how Capilano stacks up.  Combine the amazing scenery with a genius routing, vintage Thompson bunkering, and some super greensites I'd say it deserves some consideration.  I'd play it over Hamilton if given the choice.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

I've never seen Osprey Valley in person, and don't think I've ever commented on it (perhaps it was all of that beer you fed me at your place during my last visit that makes me forget!)... but I look forward to a visit in the near future...

[ian]

Matt,

Capilano may be the best routing Thompson did. The site was an enormously difficult site to work with. What Thompson accomplished was nothing short of remarkable. There are many great holes such as 7, 9, 15, and 18.

Jaspar, St. Georges, and Highlands are much superior sites, and it makes for better golf courses.

I'll take Hamilton over Capilano. Ignoring the bunkering which has been dumbed down for a series of years; tell me where the bad hole at Hamilton lies. Hamilton has a series of outstanding holes in 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 (by Diddle), 18.

It has more great holes than Capilano. Do a mtach play and you will see.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Sorry to cut, Matt... but I'll do a match-play.

Capilano vs. Hamilton

1. Square
2. Cap 1up
3. Square
4. Cap 1up
5. Square
6. Hamilton 1up
7. Square
8. Square
9. Cap 1up

10. Square
11. Square
12. Square
13. Square
14. Cap 1up
15. Cap 2up
16. Cap 3up
17. Cap 4up
18. Cap 4up

Hmmmm. admittedly, I did this kinda quick, Ian. But...  

[Robert Thompson]

Bryan: Matt and others have got it right -- I think Canada has some good, fun golf, but little of it is great and very, very little of it ranks among the top 100 in the world. My point was to suggest a reason why so many Canadian courses ended up on the list -- which has to do with having so many Canadian raters.
I'd point you to the list Ian, Ben, Jeff and myself did on the Top 25 courses in Canada. As for Ian's comments, I think Hamilton deserves a spot in the top 100, even with its unremarkable bunkering. I think Banff and Jasper are inline with that, and St. G and Highlands should rest comfortably in it.

Of new courses I've seen, only Eagles Nest and Blackhawk were outstanding. The Paintbrush is also very good.

Don't take my comments the wrong way -- but very little in Canada can even compete with the Kings course at Gleneagles, let alone remarkable Scottish links like Muirfield or Turnberry.

Anyway, sorry I didn't respond more quickly -- but I was out playing some pretty good Canadian golf today -- 36 split between Lookout Point and Cherry Hill.

[ian]

Capilano vs. Hamilton

1. Square
2. Hamilton 1 up
3. Hamilton 2 up
4. Capilano 1 down
5. Hamilton 2 up
6. Hamilton 3 up
7. Capilano 2 down
8. Square 2 up
9. Capilano - 1 down

10. Hamilton 2 up
11. Hamilton 3 up
12. Hamilton 4 up
13. Hamilton 5 up
14. Capilano 4 down
15. Capilano 3 down
16. Capilano 2 down
17. Capilano 1 down
18. Capilano - match square

Facinating result.

[Robert Thompson]

Oh, and Predator Ridge is the best think Les Furber has done. I wouldn't call it a links, but I never considered it target golf in a million years. I think the new nine, which was added after the original 18, is very mediocre.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

You prove what I, and others have long thought of Capilano: the finish is so, so strong. There might not be a better finishing stretch of holes in Canada.

Other than Blackhawk! Right, Robert  

Capilano vs. Blackhawk - 10 thru 18

10. Square
11. Square
12. Square
13. Sqaure
14. Square
15. BH 1up
16. Square
17. Square
18 (close, but...) Cap 1up

That's painful  

[Robert Thompson]

Yeah, but all those short fives at the start....

[Adam_F_Collins]

My experience is surely limited, but I have to agree with the general opinion here.

There are plenty of expensive, big-budget extravaganzas up here (mostly in Ontario and BC) but beneath all of the well-groomed polish and hospitality lie some pretty forgettable designs.

Canada seems to utilize mostly Canadian Designers - and lets face it, the pool seems fairly shallow.

From what I can tell, there's never been anyone even close to the caliber of Thompson, to come out of the Great White North. I hope someone does come along...

[Jeff_Mingay]

Adam,

Thompson "ran into" some pretty high caliber properties throughout his career. And he was a talent; no doubt.

But I will say, without bias, you need to see Wolf Creek and Blackhawk in Alberta. Stanley Thompson wouldn't have come up with what Rod Whitman did at those two properties (for better or worse).

[Adam_F_Collins]

Haha! Ever the promoter, Jeff. You're a good man to have on one's team as you never stop working! You never sleep!

I knew you'd pipe up about Rod Whitman, and I will admit here on the forum that I have yet to experience his (or your) work, but do very much look forward to it.

I must say, I do wonder why we don't see more work from you guys. Is it that Rod spends a lot of time elsewhere? I would think more people would be looking for him by now...

One of two things has to happen:

I need to get finished school and get a job so I can get out there to play, or YOU need to come out here and build a golf course or two! Christ, would someone PLEASE give us a good seaside links-style course out here? It's "NEW SCOTLAND", for God's sake!!!!

People still speak GAELIC and wear kilts whenever they get the chance. If you yell out "Hey, MACDONALD!"on the street, half the people in earshot will turn to answer you! - and if you try "CAMPBELL!" instead, you'll get the other half!