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TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2005, 10:00:30 PM »
David Moriaty asked:

"So if you could be so kind to indulge me with the answers to these seven simple questions, I'll be much appreciative . . . thank you in advance for your answers."

DaveM:

Well of course I could. You should know by now I'm more than happy to do anything for you! First thing in the morning, OK?----- unless I'm out cutting the lower forty. I got a new tractor today and it might be sort of hard to stay away from in the next few days--and then Wayne is constantly bugging me to get to writing on this dude Toomey. Or is it Flynn? Well, I'm pretty sure it's one or the other of them anyway. I'm also afraid that Tom MacWood is about to ask me to help him research and write and essay on Horace Hutchinson. I know I'll find it hard to say no and if I do that too I really may be too busy to answer those seven questions. But I'm going to do my very best anyway.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2005, 10:09:19 PM »
I'm also interested in how many links-inspired courses where built in Britain elsewhere. The post regarding Philadelphia courses is excellent, but do we know which of these were "good" or "links-inspired" and which were "evil" or "inland-style"?

We have to sift through all of this if we're going to figure anything out.

How many courses were built between 1880 and 1900 which we might describe as falling on "the GOOD side of the force"?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 10:09:45 PM by Adam_Foster_Collins »

TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2005, 10:47:24 PM »
Adam:

The "Force" was with Westward Ho! very early! Horace Hutchinson "Improved" that course before his ninth birthday and then wrote about it in that highly influential magazine "English Country Kid's Life" The magazine even did a feature on little Horace's development of the ultra natural looking English vernacular sandbox. Unfortunately, it was an unsuccessful creation as William Morris's herd of cats used it to take dumps in.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2005, 10:53:00 PM »
TE,

Ah yes, wasn't that the period when they started referring to bunkers as "ye olde catbox"?

What year was Westward Ho! Built? And what a wonderful name. Why have there been so few inspired names for golf courses?

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2005, 10:54:56 PM »
"English Country Kid's Life" -- Pwaaaa-HAAAAA-HA-HA-HAA!!
That's good.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2005, 11:00:28 PM »
Pat
The figure I've read for course in American (1900) is one thousand.

Which seems a little high to me, but it's a big country.

So, You doubt your own source ?

Where did you read this ?
[/color]

A dozen is crazy...there had to be well over a dozen in the NY Metro.

Could  you name the Dozen courses in Metro NY in
1895 ?  

Could you name a dozen courses in the US in 1895 ?
[/color]


T_MacWood

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2005, 11:00:39 PM »
Adam F. Collins

"I'm also interested in how many links-inspired courses where built in Britain elsewhere. The post regarding Philadelphia courses is excellent, but do we know which of these were "good" or "links-inspired" and which were "evil" or "inland-style"?

How many courses were built between 1880 and 1900 which we might describe as falling on "the GOOD side of the force"?"

If you are interested, what is preventing you from finding the answer?

T_MacWood

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2005, 11:10:22 PM »
Pat
You said 1900.

Albany, Bedford, Binghampton, Wanekah, Cazenovia, Maidstone, Westbrook, Ithaca, Mohapac, Orange, Powelton, Apawamis, Ardsley, Century, Fox Hills, Garden city, Knollwood, Nassau, Oakland, Old country Club, Richmond County, Scarsdale, Shelter Island, St. Andrews and Wykagly.

and your author is....?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 11:11:08 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2005, 11:15:28 PM »
"Pat
You said 1900.
Albany, Bedford, Binghampton, Wanekah, Cazenovia, Maidstone, Westbrook, Ithaca, Mohapac, Orange, Powelton, Apawamis, Ardsley, Century, Fox Hills, Garden city, Knollwood, Nassau, Oakland, Old country Club, Richmond County, Scarsdale, Shelter Island, St. Andrews and Wykagly."

Tom MacWood, is C&W all you know?


TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2005, 11:27:25 PM »
"What year was Westward Ho! Built?"

Most of it, including the routing was done by Sven Dunklefinger about 8 1/2 million years ago but Tom MacWood has found some research material Golf Illustrated that suggests that Horace Hutchinson advised.

You think Westward Ho! is a cool name? How do you like Eastward Ho! on the Cape by Herbert Fowler? It's a very cool golf course. They say Fowler routed it on horseback.

T_MacWood

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2005, 11:34:31 PM »
TE
Good luck finding half the courses in C&W.

TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2005, 11:41:26 PM »
"TE
Good luck finding half the courses in C&W."

Really? Then HOW DO you DO IT? You must be such an expert researcher! No wonder you figured all this stuff out about the A/C Movement's massive influence on the Golden Age of golf architecture that noone ever knew before.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2005, 12:09:27 AM »
Adam F. Collins

If you are interested, what is preventing you from finding the answer?

Okay... uh... Tom.

Since we were having a discussion among 1500 golf-course-obsessed people from all over the world, I actually thought one might ask such questions or express interest here, and expect that someone else might know the answer and be happy to share it. That IS an interesting method of conversation, though. Rather than answer questions... you tell the other person to go find their response elsewhere...

...how warmly interactive.

You'll have to remember that not everyone posts from the library. And if we're all just going to go somewhere else for questions and answers, then I imagine this forum will quickly become a rather quiet place.

Oh, but maybe we're all supposed to come back and talk about how much research we've done - kind of the bookworm version of comparing penises. ("I've been reading about golf course architecture for TEN YEARS!" "Oh yeah? Well I've read about nothing but the effects of bird droppings on golf course turf for TWELVE YEARS!!") But if we're asked a question about what we've learned, we'll reply, "Go find it yourself."

Thanks, Tom. Hey, do you know any good sources of information where I might find out how many links-inspired golf courses were built before 1900?

Careful Tom, I'm starting to take these snippy little comments of yours as a sign of affection...


:) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2005, 12:23:10 AM »
Pat
You said 1900.

That's a blatant LIE.

I never said 1900.

Is this an example of mistating the facts, or just revisionist history ?.
[/color]

Albany,After 1897[/color]
Bedford, After 1897[/color]
Binghampton,1918[/color]
Wanekah, can't find ?[/color]
Cazenovia, In 1894 the architect was 12 years old.  I doubt he was designing golf courses.
Is this what they call padding your research ?
[/color]
Maidstone, 1898[/color]
Westbrook, 1893[/color]
Ithaca, can't find[/color]
Mohapac, After 1897, probably 1900[/color]
Orange,can't find[/color]
Powelton, 1921[/color]
Apawamis,1898[/color]
Ardsley, 1895[/color]
Century,1926[/color]
Fox Hills, 1899[/color]
Garden city,1897[/color]
Knollwood,1898[/color]
Nassau, 1927[/color]
Oakland, 1896 nine holes[/color]
Old country Club, 1907 or later[/color]
Richmond County, 1916[/color]
Scarsdale,1898[/color]
Shelter Island, can't find[/color]
St. Andrews1898[/color] and
Wykagly.1905
 
Emmett didn't build his first golf course until 1897..
[/color]

and your author is....?

Geoff Shackelford

Who's your author ?
[/color]

« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 12:23:46 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

DMoriarty

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2005, 02:01:20 AM »
Patrick,

While you may never have technically said "1900," something smells very fishy.  

I asked you "How many courses existed on the east coast at the turn of the century?  Enough to be considered an adequate sample size in your mind?  

Your response?
DMoriarty,

NOT ENOUGH.

At about the turn of the century there were barely a dozen golf courses in all of America.  How could one draw finite conclusions on such a limited sampling ?

Your reasoning is so flawed that I'm shocked.

This is more than a bit disingenuous, dont you think?  

"NOT ENOUGH" you exclaim.  Hmmm . . . You seem to be saying that there werent many courses at the turn of the century.   Then you back this up by saying that there were barely a dozen "around the turn of the century," as if this supports your "NOT ENOUGH."

Then to top it off, you scold me for refusing to study each of the relevant courses.  Well Patrick, the relevant number of courses AT THE TURN OF THE CENTURY (see defn. below) was actually pretty large.   So why are you trying to mislead us into believing that it was actually very few?  Surprising and more than a little disappointing.  

Oh well . . .  here are some more NY courses from 1899, all from within the NYC city limits at that time, according to Outing Magazine published that year.  I think I missed a few . . .

Fox Hills
Harbor Hills
Crescent
Dyker Meadow
Marine & Field
Van Cortlandt
Westchester Golf Club
CC of Westchester (Old CC?)
Pelham
Flushing
Richmond Hills
Rockaway Hunt Club

So, Patrick, how many courses do you think existed in America at the AT THE TURN OF THE CENTURY?  NOTE: "TURN OF THE CENTURY" IS DEFINED HERE AS "THE STROKE OF MIDNIGHT DECEMBER 31, 1899"  

And I ask again, Is this a large enough sample size?

T_MacWood

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2005, 06:32:26 AM »
Albany, 1894
Bedford, 1897
Binghampton,1899
Wanekah, 1890
Cazenovia, 1900
Maidstone, 1898
Westbrook, 1893
Ithaca, 1900
Mohapac, 1898
Orange, 1899
Powelton, 1892
Apawamis,1898
Ardsley, 1895
Century, 1898
Fox Hills, 1899
Garden city,1897
Knollwood,1898
Nassau, 1898
Oakland, 1896
Old Country Club (Flushing), 1894
Richmond County, 1897
Scarsdale,1898
Shelter Island, 1900
St. Andrews 1888 (apple tree gang)
Wykagly,1898

A few more:
Hay Harbor 1890
Forest Hill Field 1897
Colonia 1898
Deal 1899
Hollywood 1898
Englewood 1896
Essex Fells 1900
Glen Ridge 1894
White Beeches 1897
Montclair 1893
Hackensack 1898
Ridgewood 1898
Baltusroll and there are more

My source is the Golfer's Handbook (1930)

Being from the Metro area I'm surprised you were unaware of the number of courses circa 1900....there are a lot of old club around there that trace their roots way back.

What exactly did Geoff say about the number of golf courses in 1900? I suspect you either took what he said out of context or mis-quoted him.

Now that you have acknowledged there was quite a bit more than a dozen courses in the US, do you still claim there were no Victorian courses in America?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 06:54:25 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2005, 06:47:11 AM »
Adam
Sorry if you took offense. There was time on GCA when civility was the rule....I say we try to get back to it.

There is a book on Scotish golf written by a guy named Price...you'll find it in most public libraries. I'd start there.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 07:00:14 AM by Tom MacWood »

wsmorrison

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2005, 07:01:59 AM »
Adam,

I don't think any of the Philadelphia area courses were what we might consider natural looking--very dark ages stuff.  Old photographs of these courses that I've seen (and there are precious few) and the one drawing (Atlantic City CC) show courses with clearly evident man-made features with straight lines, chocolate drops and other stinky stuff.

Even Merion Cricket Club's Haverford course prior to the East (circa 1911) was pretty awful.  I think it safe to say that the dark ages lingered around Philadelphia until Merion East and Pine Valley.  It wasn't until after these courses were built and Flynn's late in that and throughout the next decade that Philadelphia golfers could comptete against Boston and New York.  Too many Quaker wimps, possibly   ;)

TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2005, 07:24:32 AM »
Adam:

You're post #62 is very appropriate at this point. Regardless of the subject of the influence Hutchinson and the A/C Movement had on the "Golden Age" of golf architecture there's no question that Tom MacWood's ability to respond on here to questions about his conclusions and suggestions about its influence on the Golden Age in his essay is really poor. It's not informative to anyone who questions his assumptions, conclusions and suggestions in that essay to have him continuously respond only that he did years of reseach. It's not informative to anyone who questions his assumptions, conclusions and suggestions to have him constantly answer questions with another question rather than an appropriate answer.

But the thing that's really beginning to concern me about Tom MacWood and this entire A/C subject is that when he does respond with some answer his answer is wholly inaccurate in an historical context. Obviously, to make accurate assumptions, conclusions and suggestions on an historical event and then its meaning in the light of history he needs to get the accuracy of that historic event correct and he doesn't seem to be doing that.

Why would that be if he's done all this voluminous research as he keeps reminding us? That's a very good question at this point. Perhaps he really hasn't done all the research he keeps reminding us he has. Perhaps, even if he did all this research he didn't analyze it correctly which has always been my fear and suspicion about him. Or perhaps, and frankly far worse, perhaps he did do all that research and did analyze it correctly but chooses to include only that which makes his point and to not include that which would dilute or deny his point.

I'm beginning to think he may've done this with Willie Park Jr and the book he wrote in 1896, and that not only did he do this in his essay, he did it again yeasterday. Park's book is about the game of golf itself and not necessrily about golf architecture of that time or Park's feeling about golf architecture of that time. But thankfully Park does inlcude in that book about 10-15 pages about architecture of that time and his own feelings about it and what the proper thing to do is in architecture of that time!

Tom MacWood claims, and claimed again yesterday that Park's descriptions and explanations about the architecture of that time and his feelings about what should be done in architecture when he wrote that book in 1896 is a wholly "Victorian".

I claim it's anything but that and particularly for that early time. As evidence of why he thinks Park's ideas on architecture of that time are wholly "Victorian" MacWood only offers as evidence the fact that Park used the term "cop" in the book. Tom MacWood explains that the term "cop" or the actual "cop" bunker was one of the most common and clear examples of Victorian, or ultra penal or Dark Ages golf architecture and he is right about that.

However, it's either not clear to Tom MacWood or perhaps not convenient for him to say so but it should certainly occur to us on here in this discussion that what Tom MacWood refers to as a "cop" and what Willie Park referred to as a "cop" in his book in 1896 may not have the same meaning.

I asked Tom MacWood to tell us what he means by a "Cop" or "Cop bunker" but of course he hasn't answered that. Is the use of that single word "cop" in Park's book the only reason Tom MacWood has assumed that Park jr must have been a "Victorian" style golf architect in 1896 (although for some reason about 3-4 years later he somehow had a complete seachange in his ideas on golf architecture that somehow allowed him to design and build the great hearthland courses of Sunningdale and Huntercombe?

I think you can see where I'm going here. This assumption or conclusion on MacWood's part about Willie Park jr allows him to continue to make his case that it must have been Hutchinson (Country Life magazine) that in those ensuing 3-4 years somehow informed and instructed Park Jr to do what he did at Sunningdale and Huntercombe---to totally influence him and his ideas on golf architecture, in other words.

Park Jr's ideas on architecture in that book in 1896 were not at all a description of "Victorian" architecture---they were far more a description of what Sunningdale and Huntercombe were to be in about 3-4 years hence.

But we don't have to depend on Tom MacWood to provide us with that information. If need be I will type out on here word for word what Park Jr said about architecture in his book in 1896 and everyone on here can judge for themselves if it sounds like the architecture of the symmetrical Dark Age architecture many referred to as "Victorian" architecture or if it sounds like what was to soon come in the form of Sunningdale and Huntercombe.

ForkaB

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2005, 07:41:47 AM »
Tommy P

I've said many times before and I'll say it again (for the benefit of those who might have missed earlier discussions on this topic, and also for Tom MacWood who has eyes but often does not see.....) that Willie Park Jr. designed a course with which I am very familiar, and of which I was a member for a couple of years, Burntisland.

The course was designed as the "new" course in 1897-8 for a club which is the 9th oldest in the world.  This was likely before the first copy of "Country Life" arrived at Orr Wullie's doorstep in Musselburgh........

The course today is largely unchanged from 1898 (according to the Club's history) and is a highly natural design which utilises the land pleasingly--not on linksland but on a raised beach, which has some links and some parkland qualities.  There are NO "cop" bunkers (either existing or vestigal) and NO "geometric" shapes evident.

Methinks that wee Willie may have taught little Horace more than he ever learned from him, or even John Ruskin......... ;)

TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2005, 07:52:25 AM »
"TE
The cop bunker that Park advocates is not a major component of Victorian era golf architecture? In fact the cop bunker is THE major component of Victorian era golf architecture."

Tom:

What is your definition of "cop" bunker?

"What era advocated walls and hedges?"

Walls? Well, ah, that ultra "Victorian" era and course known as North Berwick in the Scottish linklsand, I guess. Have you ever seen "The Pit" (#13) at North Berwick, one of the coolest and quirkiest holes in the world that has a stone was running clear down the right side of the green and about three feet from it? Have you ever seen that Ultra Victorian architect George Thomas's Marion golf course that has a couple of stone walls directly in front of a few greens? Have you seen the 10th hole at ultra Victoriian architect Gil Hanse's new course in Elverson Pa that has a stone wall in front of a par 5 green? Apparantly you haven't. Maybe you need to exit that Ivory Tower in Ohio and get out there and do some research.

"How many golf architects during the golden age recommended a routing of straight out and then straight back?"

Aaah, it's still early in the morning and so the only one who comes to mind is that Ultra Victorian architecture C.B. Macdonald on the east end of Long Island in 1907 with NGLA where one nine goes all the way out to the far end of the property and then the next nine complete right back again in the same direction. How could so many people think he created the first great 18 hole course in America if he did that?  ;)

If you want to wind down this exegesis, Tom, it’d be OK with me. Believe it or not I really don’t want to see you continue to put your foot in your mouth the way you have been on these A/C threads.

T_MacWood

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2005, 08:23:21 AM »


TE
I'm not sure what your definition of a cop bunker is, but Willie's description in his book matches my understanding of the feature. Here is an example from Richmond.

Rich
"The course today is largely unchanged from 1898 (according to the Club's history) and is a highly natural design which utilises the land pleasingly--not on linksland but on a raised beach, which has some links and some parkland qualities.  There are NO "cop" bunkers (either existing or vestigal) and NO "geometric" shapes evident."

Were there cop bunkers on the course in 1898? While we're re-writing history maybe we should replace Huntercombe, Sunnigndale and the heathland with Burntisland.  :)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 08:24:02 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2005, 08:23:24 AM »
Rich:

Regarding your post #69, I completely understand what you're saying there about Brunstfield and I hope most on this website do as well. His best answer to you in that regard seems to be that you're maintaining the A/C Movement never existed at all nor the "Golden Age", for that matter. And I completely understand that Tom MacWood says the opposite. Why wouldn't he? If he did otherwise it would begin to unravel a number of his premises on which he's constructed this entire "Arts and Crafts" Movement theory as being the primary influence on the Golden Age of golf architecture.

He's already admitted to me on these A/C threads a number of times he does agree that the linksland and heathland architecture really was the primary influence on Golden Age golf architecture, and likely by a country mile, just as most every golf architectural historian has said they were.

And soi, basically Tom MacW's last line of defense of this theory is to continue to portray Park Jr as a Victorian style architect right up until that time that Hutchinson, through Country Life magazine and his strong A/C advocacy in that magazine educated Park to do otherwise.  :)

However, that notion about Park Jr, which is clearly a false premise on which Tom builds his entire theory about the A/C Movement's influence on Golden Age architecture is quickly vanishing. Luckily Park Jr furnished history with his ideas on golf architecture in his own little book before Country Life magazine came into being and Hutchinson had that strong pulpit from which to preach this renaissance of natural linksland architecture in the heathlands. I've never been sure why Tom MacWood thinks, or thinks anyone would believe, that Park Jr could've missed that powerful linksland model and influence since he always was the consummate linksman unlike Hutchinson himself. This sort of sounds like a "hauling coal to Newcastle" theory, don't you think?

So that premise of Park's curious "Victorian/Industrial?Dark Age" architectural streak needs to be maintained as fact by Tom and that's no longer happening.

That will leave as his only remaining premise this idea that the A/C movement was so global and prevalent in every art form and "aesthetic" of that entire age of Victoriana that it had to be a massive influence on the golf architecture of the Golden Age too.

That false premise will soon vanish too, in my opinion because it isn't true either to the extent Tom MacW has claimed it was.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 08:30:26 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2005, 10:06:16 AM »
The subject of the A/C Movement and what its real influence was on the Golden Age or perhaps all golf architecture or even all art forms and aesthetics, for that matter, seems to have suddenly come upon us like a swarm of locust. I'm afraid I'm partially or maybe even wholly responsible or to blame for that.

However, I think the entire subject, and certainly that time, is one of the most fascinating ones we could ever discuss and understand well on this website. The reason being this was the age when golf and golf architecture really was coming to life and coming of age for the first time all over the world as it finally migrated out of its centuries old home in Scotland! How could that not be perhaps one of the most fascinating subjects of all.

In a little while I think I'll write a thread that will be called "Does Tom MacWood have some agenda, and what is it?"

I've been watching the things Tom MacWood has been saying on this website on a whole host of diverse subjects to do with golf course architecture for years now----from this crucial sea-change time in the heathlands to the Golden Age, through the depression and into the era of the Modern Age, as it simultaneously redesigned much of what came before it, and into our relatively recent restoration era and apparently into the "Golden Age" inspired renaissance new construction era of the likes of Hanse, De Vries, Doak and Coore & Crenshaw and some others today.

Does Tom MacWood have some overall agenda, and what would it be?

I think he does and I think I know exactly what that agenda is. The key to understanding Tom MacWood's apparent agenda is to not just understand Horace Hutchinson but to really understand William Morris who probably never had a thing to do with either golf or golf architecture!! (although I'm sure Tom MacWood will inform us of that. ;) ). The ironic thing is if it's what I think it may be it truly is an interesting agenda, and perhaps even one of excellent purpose that is admirable in basic goal--at least to many of us on this website. It's probably one many on this website would agree with provided that agenda was imbued with some good old-fashioned reality in this day and age---which frankly Tom MacWoods’s modus in many ways is not!

But in his purpose of furthering his over-all agenda Tom MacWood, in my opinion, and apparently in the opinions of others, gets into either glorifying or even revising and distorting the realities of historical events far too often and far too much, but probably simply to further his agenda. I can't really say I blame him if he really is interesting in furthering his over-all agenda but ultimately it's not right, its not honest and it's not historically accurate in the evolution of golf architecture---certainly not to anything near the extents he claims on too many points and things. There more interesting question is whether or not he’s aware of this?

I don't think that's necessary for him to do---matter of fact I think it will ultimately be a disservice to something like the philosophy of the A/C Movement, at least in the way I've come to understand it, which is the way Tom MacWood outlined and explained it before he attempted to make its strong connection to golf course architecture.

The reason I say this, is who can deny that the things we're seeing today, particularly in this "renaissance" in architecture of the likes of Hanse, De Vries, Doak and C&C and perhaps others to shortly follow is one of the most complete reversions back to naturalism in architecture, to the two forms of minimalism in architecture (more on that later) and most interesting to the return of true "hand-crafting" and individualism in many of the details of golf architecture.

One only needs to follow around with the likes of Hanse, Doak or Bill Coore or any of their associates on a site from beginning to end of project to see this is the truth. If one just watches the likes of a Bill Kittleman or a Jeff Bradley for half an hour one can see this is true in spades.

As for restoration architecture that too will probably continue to be more sophisticated in a pure sense as its cycle continues---a cycle that's happened for the first time in golf architecture's history in my opinion--eg that being comprehensive restoration of old architecture.

Tom MacWood didn't need to glorify some time or era, and he certainly doesn't need to revise or deny the real facts of any time or era. Golf and golf architecture has been out of its infancy where it was in places other than the linksland around 1900 for over 100 years now. It's gone through all kinds of crazy cycles and iterations and for the first time it seems to be turning back honestly and truthfully to some of the things from which it came in the first place---the truly natural linksland model through the first man-made natural-appearing model of the heathlands and the Golden age. It's been through all kinds of aimless iterations of heavy machinery and even computer-generated creation and at least a significant slice of it is now back to some of the things it had before any of that.

Horace Hutchinson, if he could come back today, probably would see little difference between Hidden Creek and Park's Sunningdale, or Doak's Pacific Dunes and some ancient linksland course, other than obviously the greater perfection of the grass and playing conditions.

What happened in the heathlands 105 years ago was bound to happen somewhere, someday in any case, after golf and architecture went through its baby steps in foreign lands that never knew it before. Park Jr delivered that “sea-change” in the Heathlands and we don't need some undercurrent global artistic aesthetic movement to explain it. And it's happening today as these few guys look back at and through heathland architecture to the linksland model of naturalism and the look of it in the art. Did Doak or Hanse or Coore or Crenshaw understand or become totally influenced by the “arts and crafts" movement before Tom MacWood tried to make everyone aware of the fact it was of such massive influence on the Golden Age that that time should be relabeled “Arts and Crafts” golf architecture? I seriously doubt that. I think they just began to look 75 years back to the Golden Age, and to the heathlands beyond it and the linkslands beyond that.

The one who probably needs to be studied more is Park Jr, and the place that needs to be given more credit in this evolution is the heathlands---the intial place in this world of great man-made architecture.

Park needs to be looked at more carefully both in those years leading up to Sunningdale and Huntercombe as well as at that specific time he did those courses. But if anyone wants to see where Tom MacWood’s real interest and probably his entire agenda emanates from, I believe one should probably look very carefully at particularly William Morris, again, a man who likely never had a thing to do with golf or golf architecture and perhaps wasn’t even much aware of its existence.

No one needs to glorify or revise the facts that led to healthland architecture or Golden Age architecture, or, for that matter, the reasons for what’s happening today. It was bound to happen with or without the likes of people like Tom MacWood, but the really interesting thing is a good deal of his over-all agenda may finally be coming true. Or, I certainly hope it is!  ;)

« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 10:21:43 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Was there a Victorian/Industrial Age of GCA?
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2005, 11:45:55 PM »
I can't wait!

There aren't enough Tom MacWood threads IMO. Then again the cat will be out of the bag.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 11:50:10 PM by Tom MacWood »

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