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Forrest Richardson

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Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2002, 07:15:54 PM »
Oh, the Grand Canyon? We'll have that filled by March at the latest. Remodeling is coming along fine.

-- An Arizonan
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2002, 08:12:23 PM »
  !8th at Sand Hills has been mentioned. A very fair hole, I've seen over 100 different golfers play this hole and have yet to see a birdie. An incredible finish to an outerworldly golf course. However, it may not be the best hole on the COURSE.

   Therefore, I pick the 16th at Cypress Point.

    Anyway, these are the the only two holes I have prints and photographs of hanging on the wall in my "Golf Room" so that must mean something!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2002, 08:49:38 PM »
Glen F,
   Cypress Point #16 has nothing to do with equipment. Marion Hollins drove to the current greensite when the course was being routed by Mackenzie. HER shot convinced him to make it a par 3. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2002, 01:23:36 AM »



I don't think TPC Sawgrass 17 should ever be mentioned in this discussion again....

However, CPC #17 should be.

Glen, you sort of make a good point in that Cypress #16 and #17 would have played tougher, in some ways, with yesteryear's equipment. They still however play tough with today's toys.

I find the fact that the design remains relevant, challenging and enjoyable through all these years, to be really amazing ....



The point of Marion Hollins hitting to the green site is repeatedly raised in numerous texts. Imagine the response from those nearby when she accomplished that ???

Also mentioned in regard to Cypress #16 is Bing Crosby's ace. When asked about it, I believe he said he wouldn't swap it for 2 Oscars !!!



Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2002, 04:41:50 AM »
MatthewM -- Yes, #17 CPC is terrific. But, as I've pointed out, #16 has been situated to be so very unique, and part of this is by virtue of its maddening "intermediate" length. Pure and simple, the hole is a perfect blend of the three priorities of strategy (in order, and compliments of the late Wm. Flynn):

1. ACCURACY
2. CARRY

...[and then]

3. LENGTH

I pondered in some recent writing whether Hunter and MacKLenzie may well have considered #17 at CPC to be a par-5. There had been confirmed discussions, and even a detailed drawing for a bridge, concerning an island tee for #18 at CPC. This was well after CPC was completed. If an island tee at #18, then why not at #17? In fact, at #17 there is more land and better access -- it's not even a full island. In this design #17 would have been 460-yards or more, and a true Cape hole.

Just the thought of making #17 better is warrant enough not to place it above #16 in terms of this discussion. But I do hold #17 in great regard and agree with your focus on CPC. It's setting catapults it to the top in my opinion.

Perhaps a great discussion would be the combination of Nos. 16 and 17! That may well eclipse these two holes altogether!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Philippe_Binette

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2002, 06:34:27 AM »
A hidden gem...

One of Stanley Thompson masterpiece..

The 5th hole at Montebello, a 430 yards par 4 sliding to the right with a semi-blind tee shot around a big tree. Folow by a uphill shot toward a well protected green allowing also a running approach.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

The_Golf_Gods

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2002, 07:03:30 AM »
WITHOUT QUESTION IT IS THE 17TH AT THE OLD COURSE.

16TH AT CYPRESS IS 1A IN STANDINGS.  

SO IT IS DECREED BY US, SO IT IS. . . .

NOW, WE MUST GET BACK TO DESTROYING GREG NORMAN'S CAREER . . . .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

yogi_barry

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2002, 07:24:10 AM »
Why should any hole not be discussed (i.e. 17 @ TPC)?  There is not another hole where fear is so acute - especially for a little short iron to a pretty big green...  I don't think its the greatest hole either - but it IS great!  So are 16 and 18...

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2002, 02:30:03 PM »



Hi Forrest, thanks for your post.

You said - 'Perhaps a great discussion would be the combination of Nos. 16 and 17! That may well eclipse these two holes altogether!'


Now there's something awesome that I'd never thought of...


You were right too with the term 'maddening intermediate length'.

I too thought that at some stage, Hunter and MacKenzie would have thought of CPC #17 as a two shotter for some, and a three-shot hole for others, depending on strength and skill, as well as conditions ...

The design of a hole on the edge of 'par' is a grat feature of many of the holes we've discussed on this thread.

These holes must have been even more appreciated in years past, when match play was much more prevalent than it is today.

As an aside, several here in Melbourne who don't like the Royal Melbourne West layout that much, cite the collection of short par five's as a main reason, but I disagree. They are all reachable in two with the right tee shot, and all provide a great scoring and strategic challenge. They're all at that maddening intermediate length, and always provide interest.

Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2002, 09:56:36 PM »
Par is an over-rated device of golf. Actually, the Golf Gods enjoy shortish holes relative to their labeled par. Makes them feel good to see both sides of the coin: the low scores, and then the would-be low scores derailed by nerves, casualness and smugness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Glen_Fergo

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2002, 08:14:58 PM »
So sorry Ed, was par actually invented at that time?? A person hitting a green in regulation shouldn't determine its par should it. If so lets hope John Daly and Mr Woods don't start touring with course designers or we'll never see great short par 4 or 5's again. All courses will Par 64!!!!??? :o
Quote
Glen F,
   Cypress Point #16 has nothing to do with equipment. Marion Hollins drove to the current greensite when the course was being routed by Mackenzie. HER shot convinced him to make it a par 3. :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #86 on: December 22, 2002, 09:32:57 PM »
Glen -- And what would be wrong with courses of a par-64? Your tone, if I detect correctly, sounds as if there is something wrong with this math. Shoudl par not, perhaps, change dependent on the player, the match, the conditions, the moment? If Daley and Woods are playing TOC might par not be best at 65 for that match-up? Why not?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2002, 05:03:05 AM »
The greatest hole in the world and the one that was undisputedly "ideal" WAS the old 16th at Fernandina Beach Municipal!

Unfortunately, it's NLE--lost to the expansion of a 7-11 parking lot dumpster area!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2002, 06:56:00 AM »
Explain this hole. What was it like?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2002, 07:16:04 AM »
I have three pictures on my wall and all three are at CPC. One is me on the first after our comp. touching the trophy with my teammates. The other three are of me ( :o ) standing on the ninth tee, 15th tee and sitting on the bench at 16. Now, since I've only been a round once I must say that my choosing the ninth as the best in the world is a three year old memory. Again, the multi-option surrounded (framed) by the dunes is to me the best. I wonder how many actual words it took for my caddie to get to me hit a seven iron but it was alot.  As one descends down to the fairway you are engulphed by the dunes with little landing areas which caused all the discussion on the tee. Then the approach to the uphill, higher on the left lower on the right, severely sloped sliver of a green that runs at a slight angle away to the left.

To me, this option filled hole is more of what golf should be than the famed 16th. Seriously how many options do you have on 16. Carry the 197 yds of not, go way right where the meat of the green is or attack the left pin? Not too much to figure out other than hit it or miss it. While just being on the hallowed ground is enough to make even the most sedated giddy, the placement of the ninth and the anticipation of the greatness which you know is comming makes it a contender in my book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #90 on: December 23, 2002, 07:34:26 AM »
Adam

It's nearly 35 years since my latest University math course, but in all due respect I think you have 4 pictures on your wall.  Did somebody perhaps put one too many (or too few?)magic musrooms in the breakfast omelet?

PS--my favorite short 4's at CPC are 8 and 13.  Hard to really genuflect before a hole like 9 where (unless you can make the soft 290 carry over the false front) a solid straight drive gives you virtually no advantage over a 7-iron off the tee.

Slainte

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2002, 08:15:20 AM »
Intersting how the mind doesn't work. I wonder what aphasia I have today or what is it about 3? I do have four. actually more than four but these four are a series and really the only selfish pictures in the house.

As for the 290 carry i was under the impression the hole was 265. Grant it it could play 290, javier and/or wind. Don't you think if you were able to play there more you might have a go on a few days?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2002, 08:34:48 AM »
Had a go the 1st time I played it with a mildly favorable wind.  Hit it solid with a wee draw and it landed about 10 feet short of the green (front pin) where it stopped like a gerbil in heat.  Got my 4, of course.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2002, 01:11:49 PM »
Re: CPC's #9 and #16...

I believe, gentlemen, that the element of the sea is sufficient enough to launch #16 past #9 in honors of "the best". A golf hole, because it is a living combination of parts within the environment, must be gauged by what is around it, both proximal and distant.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2002, 04:11:02 PM »
Dave- 16 does not require a career shot. It's 197 to carry the wall. I doubt 7 iron is an option for lay up on 16 but again I felt that the lay up option did not exist save for into a gale. On nine it's the play due to the penal nature of the dunes that kind of jut in and out of the fairway. I actually missed mine and ended up on the top of duneline on the right but didn't go over the apex. So I hit a smooth seven iron to the front which is on the right otherwise the rest of the green to the left is gaurded by a massive dune bunker monster going up the hill.(almost redan-like)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul M. Burke jr. MD

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2003, 08:27:14 AM »

I would agree with PB #8, with the exception that driver is pretty much taken out of your hands
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2003, 08:52:53 AM »
Very cool this came back up, and interesting you fellows were discussing CPC the very day my chums and I were playing the course.  No wonder I didn't see all this before...  ;)

Given that was a scant two weeks ago, the memory is fresher, so I can say this about Nos. 9 and 16:

9:  the card says 292 from blue, 282 from white.  That's to the middle of the green.  Remember, the dune on which the green sits is MASSIVE, so the entire green is well above the tee, but the back left is REALLY above the tee.  So my assessment would be:

front right pin:  big hitters go for it without a doubt, as Dave says.  The actual widest point to leave their shot (besides hitting WEDGE off the tee and staying short of the dune/scrub that starts on the left about 150 off the tee) is right up by the green.  So the choice really isn't there... it's either wedge to a fat part, something that goes 150-220 to a skinny part, or 220+ to another fatter part, up by the green.  Unfortunately you're likely to get the result Rich did unless you carry it about 270 uphill, but what the hell, it's the right shot anyway.  It's not an EASY shot, but it seems to me to be the only viable choice, really.

Back left pin (upper tier):  only the most foolish even try for that.  You're gonna need a carry of 280, uphill, and then hope that stops on that shelf.  Doesn't seem very likely... and the risk is HUGE... short means death on the dunes, long means you pray it stays on 10 tee and even then the pitch back would be brutally touchy, with the most likely result being the ball goes all the way back down the tier.

I too love the golf hole, I like the choices involved... but then again, I'm not a Schmidt/Wigler/Ward type blaster for whom the above are the choices - I couldn't make the back left pin with a cannon, and front right exists for me only if I get some serious wind behind.  All of the above is just speculation as to how these blasters would handle the hole... Hopefully one will see this and grade my thinking.   ;)

In any case, us mortals surely do have to give a lot of thought to the tee shot choice... normally it would be trying to fit something into the skinnier fairway at 150-200.  Two weeks ago I went ahead and hit driver, and it worked out fine - ended up about 40 yards short of the green - damn good shot given the odd left to right and against wind we had.  But I can see the normal shot, for me anyway, being in the 150-200 range.

Rich makes a VERY good point anyway that in the end, a shot up near the green isn't that much better than a shot layed back... for me, a 50 yard pitch up hill seems easier than a full 140 yard shot, which is what the wedge off the tee would leave... but that's because my iron play sucks.  I can see a finer iron player doing this 9-iron/8-iron for sure... if anything the shot from farther back allows you to see more of the green and isn't as uphill as being right below the dune...

Oh well, it's one hell of a golf hole that can inspire this much commentary, anyway!

And I didn't mention 16 yet!  No, no choices exist there - not if you're there as a guest, anyway.  I can't see ever playing left, unless I was a member and had a lot riding.  The shot isn't much easier going left... So long as I'm able to make a 200 yard carry, that's always gonna be the play - straight at the hole.

That doesn't lessen the greatness of the hole at all, for me anyway.  Choices are one thing, and incredible beauty and magic are another.  The latter speak louldy to me....

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2003, 09:08:08 AM »
Wind, nerves, the smell of the sea, the sound of the waves -- are all a plus at #16 -- these factors cannot be ignored when considering the question.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

THuckaby2

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2003, 09:13:03 AM »

Quote
Wind, nerves, the smell of the sea, the sound of the waves -- are all a plus at #16 -- these factors cannot be ignored when considering the question.

Concur completely, Forrest.  I was just trying to comment on the "choices" involved on 9, as discussed by Rich and Dave.  16 remains the greatest hole in the world, even after an inattentive caddie answers your queries re using less club in an odd downwind condition with a brush-off "no way, go ahead and hit driver" resulting in your ball going so long and left that it's likely in Japan now.

Not saying this happened to anyone two weeks ago, nooo... I wouldn't be that bitter.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: What's the greatest hole in the world?
« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2003, 04:16:15 PM »
Forrest agreed, except for when the sea wants to take you with it.
True story, at last years Caddie cup a big wave almost swept Casey Boyns off his feet. It would've been the stuff legends are made of since Casey is one of the best players on the peninsula.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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