[cary lichtenstein]

I don't know about the rest of the Treehouse, but I thought the 18th hole was too penal. Just no where to hit your drive on your finishing hole on a 7500 yard course.

Or it just maybe an example of a brilliant stragetic finishing hole.

What say you all?

[Brad Klein]

I don't know, Cary, the 18th was certainly more exciting than every other hole I saw on TV at Redstone. Of course it helps that it's based upon a principle of reverse camber, so that the hole bends right and the fairway cants left. There isn't a hole in the world built that way that works right.

[TEPaul]

That hole definitely doesn't have any width options for the tee shot---that's for sure. The options for the tour pros on the tee pretty much seemed to be a distance option to lay back some from the left right turn of the fairway where the land broke away to the left into the water hazard. Singh's driver strategy (twice) was aggressive as usual and seemed to bank on luck as much as an expected relief drop option if he went too far right (corporate tents). That hole is sort of a modern high demand type to me---but as Brad Klein said whatever anyone thinks of it architecturally it sure does have the capacity to create excitement at the eleventh hour!  

[Philippe Binette]

How come nowhere to hit...

I saw a 35 yards wide fairway out there...
Redstone is a bomber course, looking at the aerials, there's no option anywhere on this golf course, just hit the fairways as long as you can.

If this hole is too penal, what about 18th at Sawgrass...

JD and Singh miss the fairway because they think the fairway is wide, if not they would have hit 3-wood...

[Mike Hendren]

Daly hits it down the left side of the fairway (perhaps merely to spite Lanny who has boldly predicted a block right since Daly has eschewed the range for a few puffs on the cig) and is now hitting three from an impossible sidehill lie.  Vijay puts it in the rough and has a great angle in - twice.

The line of charm is in the trees.  It is not a very good golf hole in my book.

Mike

[Philippe Binette]

The reverse camber thing...

If you don't have the guts and talent to hit a fade aiming at the left side of the fairway (even if there'is a lake) against the slope: you deserve to finish in the middle of the pack...

Once again: remember the 18th at the Ryder Cup last year...
Euros could shape the ball in play...
USA could bomb it in the rough...

Brad Klein: so 14th at Augusta was not working (before Fazio's rough)

Theory on the evolution of 14th at ANGC
1) 1995 (400 yards): Cool hole play short (235 of the tee)  if you can't shape it, leaving you 165yards to a severe green. If you hit driver: shape the ball, you have 120 left to the hole, miss your draw, you're in pine straw territory..

2) 1999 (400 yards): Fazio brings in the rough, really understanding the original concept of ANGC. Players discover that they can hit driver because the rough will stop the ball before it gets to the trees. So everybody is playing from 120 yards... Shaping or not shaping who cares...

3) 2001 Fazio&Friends think that hole is too short now that everybody is playing wedge into the green (nice work genius) so they are adding 40 yards on this hole (440 yards)

4) 2005 Tiger&the Bombers are still playing from 120 because his old friend rough will stop his ball if necessary. Other players who could shape the ball to gain an advantage in the old days are now playing from 170 yards out...

Adding length will protect Augusta National...  

[Brad Klein]

Philippe:

18th at TPC-Sawgrass (Stadium Course) doglegs slightly left and fairway cants modestly right to left, just like turn one of any U.S. racetrack. That helps bank a shot.

18th at Redstone doglegs right and fairway cants right to left; if this were a race track turn, all cars would be flying out out of control and crashing. That's why the principle - reverse camber - never works in golf, just as it would never work (or even be tried) on a race track.

Perhaps, as you suggest, superior shot-making can overcome bad design. But it's still bad design - which is why the optional shot there is what Singh did on the 72nd hole, namely hit it far enough right and long enough that the ball goes through the back end of the dogleg.

[Sean_A]

Unless I am mistaken, there was a sizeable thread on this a few weeks ago.  The holes were called reverse doglegs.  The description Brad gave is what I took for a reverse dogleg.  If this is the case, many good examples of this strategy were pointed out.  Including #s 10 & 12 at Hoylake.

Ciao

Sean

[Philippe Binette]

Brad:

The comparative to 18th at Sawgrass was wrong, I didn't focus too much on the reverse camber from the first comment but more on the notion of the width of the fairway and the water...

What's your point on 14th at Augusta and don't tell me that it's OK because there's no lake on the outside of the fairway... those tress were also a 1 stroke penalty..

[Brad Klein]

10 and 12 at Hoylake don't have irrevocable hazards (i.e. water) on the outside of the doglegs.

As for 14th at ANGC, it's not my point, it's yours, so please don't expect me to try to clarify what you wrote there.

[Sean_A]

Brad

I didn't say the 18th at whatever tour stop the boys played yesterday was a good hole.  Merely saying that the strategy of that type is sound.  Perhaps the architect got a bit carried away with water.  The holes at Hoylake do have severe bunkers guarding the outside line.  For some, this is worse than water!

There is not much point in a reverse dogleg if there isn't something on the outside line to catch the player out.  However, I do prefer if this type of hole does allow the option of taking the risk in driving over/through the trouble on the inside line.

Ciao

Sean

[Philippe Binette]

Brad, sorry, wrong word...(the French part of my brain was working on this one)

my question was, what's your opinion on 14th at ANGC, do you think it's a good hole?

another thought: it seems that in golf (PGA TOUR especially), players don't want to play ugly to score... 18th at Redstone might not be a great hole but it's in front of you, try to find a solution to play it...

If you can't work the ball, 2 iron of the tee (235 yards) 5 iron to the middle of the green (205 yards) and water is not in play...

If you think that's stupid play, remember 1996 British Open (Faldo Lehman duel of who can hit it the shortest to keep the ball in play and to play first to the green) or any other Faldo Open victory...

Golf is about finding a way to score, if you see a reverse camber fairway, a lake on the outside and you know you don't have a fade driver in you shot selection... and then you hit driver in the lake, you're an idiot....

[Jonathan McCord]

  Quick Question: Why don't reverse doglegs work?  They certainly favor shotmaking, which is said to be a lost art , and when you can hit driver and sling a big ole cut towards the rightside of the fairway you certainly gain an advantage.

  First of all, Daly made a mistake playing any kind of right to left shot yesterday. I don't care if he would have hit 5 iron right to left, it still probably would have found its way in the water.  You have to force yourself to miss right in that situation.  What Vijay did was a good play for him.  He plays a natural fade, and right is sure a heck of a lot better then left.

   Back to reverse doglegs not working.  If I remember correctly, I believe the green favored a shot coming from the right side of the fairway.  This also favors shot making in that, the golfer should hit a fade off the tee, and a draw into the green.  SHOTMAKING is a must to take full advantage of this hole.

   I would have done exactly what Lanny was saying, hit one heck of a block right....or at least one hell of a fade.

[JESII]

Of course it helps that it's based upon a principle of reverse camber, so that the hole bends right and the fairway cants left. There isn't a hole in the world built that way that works right.

Not one ?

What is wrong with this design?

Brad, your comments seem to leave little expectation on the player to make a decision on the tee and execute a shot. Am I missing something?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Daly hit the same three-wood in regulation into the center of the fairway and hit it eight feet for birdie and make it. The fact of the matter is he hit a bad shot in the playoff, period.

[Brad Klein]

I'll grant you one thing. Daly, who is not exactly Mensa material or highly motivated to work (even Lanny Wadkins got that one right at the time), should have been on the range beating cut 3-woods for a half an hour, knowing exactly the crucial shot he would be facing.

As for reverse cambers, I've seen way too many of them and they just don't work for average golfers. Does it make for a demanding sets of shots for great players? Sure: Olympic-Lakeside has about 10 of them.

[JESII]

I'm not defending this hole in particular, but I do find the concept (reverse cant/dogleg) interesting, challenging and sound, so long as there are not many on one course (never been to Olympic).

As long as the features work well with the terrain, this type of hole offers situations other 'standard' holes cannot.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

JD and Singh miss the fairway because they think the fairway is wide, if not they would have hit 3-wood...

Daly did hit a 3-wood.

[Dave_Miller]

JD and Singh miss the fairway because they think the fairway is wide, if not they would have hit 3-wood...

 

Daly did hit a 3-wood.

Are you sure?  I thought Daly hit 5 wood
Best
Dave

[Steve_ Shaffer]

In any event, we won't have this hole to kick around any more as the tournament will be moving to the new Rees Jones course across the street next year.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Are you sure?  I thought Daly hit 5 wood
Best
Dave

No, I'm not sure.  I know he didn't hit a driver, and I thought I heard Lanny or Jimmy say that it was a 3-wood.  

I also heard someone say that, after his drop, Daly had 115 yards left.  Quite a layup!

[JESII]

Daly had about 150 after his drop, and it was a fairway wood from the tee, 3 or 5 who knows, the commentators said 3.

[CHrisB]

I'll grant you one thing. Daly, who is not exactly Mensa material or highly motivated to work (even Lanny Wadkins got that one right at the time), should have been on the range beating cut 3-woods for a half an hour, knowing exactly the crucial shot he would be facing.

Brad,
My first thought was along the same lines, that Daly should at least try to stay warm in case he made the playoff. But really, who are we kidding? Daly wouldn't be Daly without the "couldn't care less" attitude, and if he was the kind of guy that would ge to the range and hit cut 3-woods for 30 minutes in anticipation of a playoff, then he probably wouldn't have the 2 majors he has now.

[JohnV]

During regulation Daly hit a perfect fairway wood and made birdie.  He tried to hit the same shot in the playoff and came over the top and pulled it.  Bad swing at a bad time, but a good idea.  This time his execution let his brain down which is unusal in JD's case.  

[Brent Hutto]

Daly hit a lofted fairway wood, hit it five yards too far left and ended up in the water. He made a relatively small mistake on a penal hole and paid a penalty (more than one shot, in effect). To me that's not the interesting part of what happened on eighteen yesterday.

What's interesting is that, as Mike Hendren points out, the obvious perfect place to put your tee shot is in the spectator-trampled rough among or past the trees down the right side. You couldn't possibly design a hole that more perfectly validates Vijay Singh's preferred strategy of bombing it 300+ yards into either fairway or right rough (where the lies are usually perfect due to spectators) and then wedging it onto the green of even ridiculously long Par 4's. Hell, they put the pin over to the left just in case anyone could possibly miss the "hit it right" sign that the eighteenth hole was wearing.

Daly got suckered into the "conservative" tee shot that actually brings the water more into play. It's a new course built to reward modern "anti-strategy" and Daly shows up with an old-fashioned US Open style strategy of trying to put a shorter club into the fairway (reverse cambered in this case). What a chump, John. Where's the old grip it and rip it with a driver mentality? Your day has finally arrived.

I'll agree with Brad Klein's point that putting a water hazard on the outside of a reverse-cambered is a bit over the top in most cases (although maybe not on a hole so clearly designed as a do-or-die finishing hole for Tour players). However, to generalize from that observation and conclude that having a dogleg with reverse cambered to the fairway "never works" is nonsense.

[JESII]

You couldn't possibly design a hole that more perfectly validates Vijay Singh's preferred strategy of bombing it 300+ yards into either fairway or right rough (where the lies are usually perfect due to spectators) and then wedging it onto the green of even ridiculously long Par 4's.

The exact same thought occured to me as it happened.

How could the problem be fixed? They have a couple of trees planted over there that will grow and provide some defense. How about a tree close to the championship tee that forces the player to start their drive in the center to left center of the fairway ?

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