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JakaB

As seen in the picture below and also on the 16th Cypress seems to have these cut in a hill backdrop bunker complexes...I find them to be distracting and unnatural.  How is this either good or strategic and anything but overly designed eye candy that steals from the great beauty of the site..


JakaB

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2005, 11:32:01 PM »
Another hole confused by to many bunkers..


Kyle Harris

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2005, 11:33:12 PM »
John,

I am fairly certain you have it backwards. The bunkers weren't cut into the hillside, but rather, the grass grew around them.

Weren't most of the greens and holes at CPC cut out of Sandhills and dunes native to the site? If so, the grass would be ideal for preventing erosion.

While a more modern architect would cut the bunkers out of the hillside, I believe at one time the bunkers were the hillside in this case...

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2005, 11:34:29 PM »
John,
   The bunkers simply don't blend in as well since they put the liners in, and hopefully over the next few years they will let the edges look more naturalistic. Right now the edges have that Augusta National/Royal Melbourne surgical incision look, but I think time will help the situation.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

JakaB

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2005, 11:40:27 PM »
The pudding...best picture of the set and where are the bunkers..


peter_p

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2005, 11:43:28 PM »
They're not as white as the wave break. As usual, Ed has a good point about the growing in period. The ones behind 16 add perspective as well as prevent a guilt free bomb past the green.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2005, 11:45:27 PM »
John,

I agree regarding the bunkers on hole 13, the lines seem much too straight, hardly following the irregular lines of nature. I believe this situation is a result of a recent bunker renovation project, and I imagine in a few years the edges will start to erode and vary, and the natural look that Mackenzie uncovered will return.

TK

JakaB

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2005, 11:51:21 PM »
They're not as white as the wave break. As usual, Ed has a good point about the growing in period. The ones behind 16 add perspective as well as prevent a guilt free bomb past the green.

Peter,

That is the exact opposite view point I have of the bunkers behind the 16th...To me they look like a safe haven where one can take an extra club and take double out of the equation..

JakaB

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2005, 12:02:42 AM »
MacKenzies bunker model reminds me of the numbers surrounding a dart board....didn't he get that by visually identifying a target with quassi hazards he makes the game easier for the low handicap and tougher for the high....a Fazionic con job if I ever saw one.

DMoriarty

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2005, 12:07:39 AM »
John, every couple of months you go after CPC as artificial, contrived, whatever.   Why?  

As is mentioned above and in past threads, the entire hill left of the green is a big sand dune, and was mostly exposed sand at the time the course was built.  In fact there were many portions of exposed sand that are no longer exposed.

Perhaps the bunkers looked better before the bunker work, but then that is not really your point, is it?  

JakaB

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2005, 12:25:57 AM »
David,

I don't know why, maybe it is because every couple of months somebody comes back from a trip and posts more pictures.   Just tell me where I am wrong about the course as it sits today....Could your attitude in defending the course in its infancy explain why some people are in love with modern designs today.  Will they too grow more and more artifical each year as man intrudes with his machines and chemicals.  Throwing aesthetics out the window what is your opinion strategically of the perspective bunkers behind the greens...would you agree with me that they allow the low handicap to dial into his target with no fear of their hazardess...while at the same time striking fear into the high handicap who only wants to hit near the green and get lucky for a prox once or twice a round.   If they are not beautiful nor strategic I just don't see their worth..

johnk

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2005, 12:33:00 AM »
The bunkers around the 13th green today fairly resemble the ones on pg 144 and 146 of the handy G. Shack insta-classic.

I think they'd fit in with the landscape better if all the brush around the tee, the ridge in front of the tee and the area to the left of the green was removed and the sand exposed, like it was when MacK was tooling around in his plus 4s.

There were a lot more sandy areas all through the ninth thru 14th hole.  See the pic on page 44 for the dune that became the 13th green.

Why doesn't CPC restore all the sandy areas?  Is there an environmental reason?  I doubt there would be a cost problem...  I'm sure they could get volunteers from this site to pull weeds for a limited amount of recipricocity...  

Heck, for most people on here, they wouldn't even have to actually play.  Just the opportunity to dress up like MacK, Robert Hunter, and Marion Hollins and recreate the pix from the book would probably be incentive enough.  I can bring a weed-whacker - now, who can bring a DeSoto?

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2005, 12:51:17 AM »
John,
  I bet 90% of first timers on #16 are unaware of the bunkering. The hazard at their feet is more than a little distracting.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

DMoriarty

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2005, 03:30:10 AM »
David, Just tell me where I am wrong about the course as it sits today....

John you are not talking about the course "as it sits today."  If you were you'd not be going on about the "MacKenzie bunker model" or the 'over-designed eye candy'.

Further, it helps to understand the history when one one views the course "as it sits today."  For example, the bunkers on 13 were blended into the dune into which they were cut.  Typical of MacKenzie's goal of blending the unnatural completely into the natural.

What we see today doesnt blend nearly as well but to say it doesnt blend at all is inaccurate.  Maybe you have to be there understand, but there are bare patches of sand all over the place, especially around No. 13.  A big dune with no sand showing would look much more unnatural.   It would be great if they could return the look to the original--  original bare sand, original wider fairways-- but it still works well even as it is.  

Quote
Could your attitude in defending the course in its infancy explain why some people are in love with modern designs today.  Will they too grow more and more artifical each year as man intrudes with his machines and chemicals.  

Most modern designs today are far from natural to begin with.  If you are talking about the neo-classic courses, then I'd have to say that it depends upon the circumstances.   Some will become less natural, some more, some will stay about the same degree of naturalness.

Quote
Throwing aesthetics out the window what is your opinion strategically of the perspective bunkers behind the greens...would you agree with me that they allow the low handicap to dial into his target with no fear of their hazardess...while at the same time striking fear into the high handicap who only wants to hit near the green and get lucky for a prox once or twice a round.

. . . they are not purely perspective bunkers, the most visible bunkers on 13 arent really even behind the green.   You also underestimate the hazardness of the bunkers, especially to the low handicapper.  Unless of course low handicappers  can always easily control a downhill bunkershot.

Take a look at a different angle of No. 13.  Do you really consider these out of play for the low handicapper?  safe havens?   Would you consider the bunker shot to that pin an easy one?   How many out of 10 do you think you could get up and down to that pin?



It is true that some golfers (more low handicappers than high) will be able to use the bunkers to gain persective, from the right side.  In fact the approach from the right side is by far the most inviting visually . . .


From the left side, I am not so sure the bunkers provide much comfort for anyone . . .



It is also true that the higher handicapper will likely be more intimidated by these bunkers, but probably less so than by the drop off and hazard on the right.  Plus, high handicappers rarely miss greens long.  So the bunkers probably make the hole play harder for the higher handicapper than it actually does play.  This is a favorite technique of MacKenzie to make the game thrilling for all levels.

While I believe I'd prefer it as it was, the course "as it is" still works well from a strategic and aesthetic perspective.




Brent Hutto

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2005, 06:50:44 AM »
From the left side, I am not so sure the bunkers provide much comfort for anyone . . .



It is also true that the higher handicapper will likely be more intimidated by these bunkers, but probably less so than by the drop off and hazard on the right.  Plus, high handicappers rarely miss greens long.  So the bunkers probably make the hole play harder for the higher handicapper than it actually does play.  This is a favorite technique of MacKenzie to make the game thrilling for all levels.

I'm glad someone posted a picture taken from the left side of the fairway. That's where I was hitting my approach, I think it was 144 to the center of the green and just over 150 to the hole with the wind right to left and maybe hurting slightly. My shot was from the left edge of the fairway whereas this picture is taken from the rough.

The amount of sand in play for my shot, combined with my knowing how much trouble I could get in far enough right, rendered me temporarily incapable of visualizing any shot that would work. I couldn't convince myself to try to hit a choked-down fairway wood all the way to the hole and I couldn't see an inviting layup spot because the front left bunkers come so far down toward the fairway.

So I certainly proved the point that the bunkering confounds a high-handicapper. And no way I would have wanted to blow it into one of those back bunkers and face a downslope explosion shot, which is what took that option of waling away with a fairway wood out of my playbook.

I don't remember the quote but some famous architect (and I believe it was MacKenzie) said there was nothing wrong with giving the average player a visually intimidating shot with hazards that he can in fact easily overcome. And I'd add that if a good player can use those hazards for "perspective" or whatever to make the hole easier then good on him.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2005, 07:25:09 AM »
Jaka B,

Could you post the aerial photo of purgatory (?) for us.

I'd like to hear the comments on that par three green and it's surrounding bunkers in the context of the photos and commments regarding Cypress.

Keep in mind, the one photo is an aerial, the ones from Cypress are ground level photos.

Thanks

Brent Hutto

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2005, 07:44:41 AM »
Here's a rather indirect link to an artist's aerial depiction of the sixteenth green..

http://mall.ballparks.com/product_info.php?products_id=2587

JakaB

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2005, 08:09:36 AM »
Patrick,

I don't see the point in comparing Cypress with a Ron Kern design in a open field in central Indiana.   While the bunkers at Purgatory are without question unquestionably overdone and unnatural..they are the best looking thing on the property.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2005, 08:41:21 AM »
Jaka B,

You might note similarities to the second picture posted.
The bunkering at the 15th green at Cypress

Chris_Clouser

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2005, 08:48:38 AM »
I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but I've got to ask a question.

Pat Mucci, have you played Purgatory?

Man, I've wanted to ask that question for three years!!!  ;D

I think the bunkers at Purgatory are a little over the top.  The 17th is perhaps the most glaring example.  But Purgatory is an example of what all of us, at least from what I can tell from the posts, want in a public course.  They have rates that are fairly reasonable, especially during the week.  It provides a challenge, but has some fun holes as well.  The 3rd hole Redan is an excellent example.  The greens have some wonderful contouring, like the 8th hole with the multi-tiered green from front to back.  Ironically, Kern used Mackenzie's bunkering model as his basis for the bunker design at Purgatory and from looking at the photos of course like the Valley Club, Pasa and Cypress, I think he did a heck of a job.  So I do find it a little disrespectful for someone to support a hole like the 15th at Cypress (or any other hole for that matter) and it's bunkering and then to point out the 17th at Purgatory as excess, which is almost identical to it with the one major exception being the lack of an ocean and using sand as a substitute.  

Granted it will never be mistaken for Cypress, but there is nothing that I haven't seen from photos or commentary that leads me to believe that Purgatory isn't on the same level as, dare I say it, Rustic Canyon.  

Chris_Clouser

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2005, 08:52:19 AM »
Pat,

Your post and mine crossed in cyber-space.  I'm glad you see the same similarities that I do between the two holes.  But seriously, Purgatory is a really good course.  It is a little over the top on the bunkering, but that is about the only complaint I could come up with about the course.  Well, maybe one or two more.   :D
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 08:52:31 AM by Chris_Clouser »

JakaB

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2005, 08:56:30 AM »
Chris,

Will you agree with me that the bunkers at Purgatory improve the aesthetics of the existing site while the bunkers at Cypress detract from its..

ChasLawler

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2005, 08:58:46 AM »
Purgatory's 17th




golf course aerial

JakaB

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2005, 09:09:44 AM »
One of the problems with the bunkers on the 17th is that they are there for as much a reason to create a "Hells Half Acre" as for their shot value.   When I played the course with the pro who was a child hood friend he thought it was neat that a course named Purgatory had a Hells Half Acre....He had never heard of the Pine Valley original and if I remember correctly MacKenzie was not involved in that design either.   I would like to know which came first...the name Purgatory or the idea for a HHA...

TEPaul

Re:Are the bunkers at Cypress a visual blight on the landscape...
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2005, 09:42:26 AM »
JohnB:

Not a bad question you ask although I can certainly tell it will be a controversial one, probably just inducing people to question you rather than the subject.

Personally, I don't think the bunkers of CPC, either originally or today are a visual blight at all. They are, however, and were back when they were built, highly "stylized". I don't know if it's somewhat apocryphal but some say the ultra-talented American Construction Co's crew that built them were doing things like imitating the shapes and formations of passing clouds.

My point about the way they look now would be the same as David Moriarty's, that today they just don't visually "tie-in" to the surrounding look of the land the way it was when they were built. That's only because today they are in a sea of green while back then they were in some cases surrounded by a sea of natural sand area and so they just looked more like the real or natural landscape back then.

This does bring up a really interesting question, though, that unfortunately may be semi-unanswerable today. That is did MacKenzie et al back then in the beginning really understand how difficult it was to maintain those sand areas, particularly the natural ones without vegetation on them?

The obvious problem may've been that those massive natural sand areas that those bunkers "tied-in" with visually back then were probably going to continue to blow and move all over the place including onto areas like tees, greens and fairways.

Did MacKenzie et al really understand that potential problem as well as he could have or we do today?

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