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Patrick_Mucci

Rating Categories ?
« on: April 21, 2005, 07:44:12 PM »
What are the specific categories that each of the three magazines use to develop ratings-rankings

Are there any substantive differences  ?

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2005, 09:11:07 PM »
Regardless of the specific categories, I think many panelist back into their ratings, decide their overall and do a + or - on the categories.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2005, 09:29:01 PM »
Patrick

Until we get the hole by hole evaluation of a golf course on the computer, and can establish the degree of difficulty for each - there will be no change!

Willie

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2005, 08:17:09 AM »
Willie is correct
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2005, 08:29:42 AM »
What are the specific categories that each of the three magazines use to develop ratings-rankings

Are there any substantive differences  ?

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2005, 08:55:30 AM »
Pat - there is one very significant difference.  Golf Magazine and Golfweek don't use categories.  Yes, GW has a list of categories that they ask raters to give numbers to, but these numbers are unrelated to the overall 1-10 grade.

Golf Digest and Golf World (top 100 Brit Isles) use a true category system where the overall score is a calculative function of the individual category scores.

JC

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2005, 10:28:29 AM »
Degree of difficulty and course ranking are not directly related.  What is essentially a subjective matter- how individuals experience a golf course- cannot be quantified with the mathematical precision some on this site seem to require.

The process is more akin to an election where citizens try to familiarize themselves with the issues and the candidates, and then vote their preferences.  Typically, a large percentage is satisfied with the results, and a smaller number think that it is B.S.

Fortunately for most of us, course ratings have only minimal impact.  And unlike the electoral process which is continually being dumbed-down, the magazines seem to be always looking for ways to improve the ratings and make them as "accurate" as reasonably possible.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2005, 10:47:57 AM »
Pat -

Here are the Golf Digest categories -  I will attempt to find the other two.

Shot values
Resistance to scoring
Design variety
Memorability
Aesthetics
Conditioning
Ambience
Bonus Walking
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2005, 10:57:51 AM »
Here are the categories from Brad Klein's latest column - don't know if these are the official rater's categories

Ease and intimacy of routing
Quality of feature shaping
Natural setting and overall land plan
Interest of greens and surrounding chipping contours
Variety and memorability of par 3 holes
Variety and memorability of par 4 holes
Variety and memorability of par 5 holes
Basic conditioning
Landscape and tree management
Walk in the park
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2005, 11:07:52 AM »
GOLF mag is a free-for-all.

From the 2003 article

"The criteria our committee uses to determine their votes include looking at courses' strategic integrity, how well a course tests the full range of golf skills, and its rhythm of design, location, ambiance, conditioning, tradition, and visual appeal. The weighting of these and other elements is left to the individual preferences of our panelists. They are asked to assign the courses they have seen one overall grade that takes all the criteria into account."
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2005, 11:10:31 AM »
PS - I think the rankings are silly, but how often to do you get to correctly respond to a direct, easy to answer question from Pat?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

JakaB

Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2005, 11:14:03 AM »
Pat has never asked a question that he didn't already know the answer....what is his motivation on this one.  

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating Categories ?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2005, 11:55:31 AM »
Actually, I think Pat Mucci comes up with the most creative threads of anyone on the site.  I marvel at his ability to come up with so many thoughts that relate to golf architecture.  

A few thoughts bout rating categories.  As a 15 year panelist for GD I both love and hate the categories,  

For me the most important categories are shot values, memorability, memorability, and design variety.
While each panelist is given a brief explanation for each category, I have discovered that each of us has given our unique twist to most of them.

For instance; conditioning.  Some panelist want the ANGC look.  On the other hand I take off for overwatered fairways that do not allow the ball to run.  At Merion I took off for the lack of an intermediate rough.  The fairways are usually firm and if you are one foot off the fairway you are in rough up to your a**.  I played with one panelist who took off points for the eyebrow bunkers at Hidden Creek.  I loved it.  In fact at my home course when the members bought Four Streams the powers at hand removed the scruffy look on the bunkers.  I think it removed some of the character of the course.

Shot values are doubled in the accounting.  Conditioning is the least important category, as I think it tends to promulgate the ANGC syndrome.  When I played Sage Valley, Mr Wyatt (sp?) made a big point about the conditon of the course.  He wanted to outcondition ANGC.

The reason I think categories are important can be illustrated by Bulle Rock.  I really dislike the course. I would not be unhappy if I never play it again.  It is Pete Dye at his creative worst.  Most holes he had designed already.  In an of itself this may not be bad, but I real tire of an 18th cape hole and some kind of peninsula or island green.  If I were to grade the course I would give it a C.  On the other hand it is a good test of golf when I grade it according to the categories. Shot values are a 6.5 or 7.  Design variety is also 6 or 6.5. (The fact that they are copies has no bearing).  And so on.

But it is only one man's opinion.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi