Why Are There So Few Great Uphill Holes?

[Mark_F]

Rich,

Interesting answer.

Does that mean a Royal St George's or a Country Down don't quite have it, for you?

[ForkaB]

Mark

It's been a while but I very much liked RCD and RSt.G.  Neither has any uphill blind shots like the 9th at Shinnecock, IMO.

[BCrosby]

I think the premise of the question is a good one. There are, in fact, relatively few great uphill holes. Some, but not many.

The reasons seem to me pretty elemental. You can't ask golfers to deal with a lot of architectural features and/or hazards if they can't see them. Blind landing areas and green sites tend to be fairly plain. Uphill holes tend to be blind at one or more points. Thus on uphill holes you have taken some of the best tools out of the architect's toolbox. That makes designing a great hole pretty tough. Not impossible. But tough.

Bob

Rich - So what's with the new Tractatus quote? I need to move you along to the P. Bemerkungen. Much more interesting. People have wasted their youths agonizing over them. I should know. Candidate passages can be provided on request.

 

[TEPaul]

"Blind landing areas and green sites tend to be fairly plain."

Bob:

What are you nuts? On which hole at PVGC did you show up that day? I don't recall but it must have been after #2 for you to make a statement like that. One definitely cannot see the green surface from any approach area on that hole and the green surface is about the most interesting in the entire universe! Next time catch an earlier plane Pal, or one that does not circle needlessly around Philadelphia causing you to be late!

[TEPaul]

Rich:

You like or insist on visiblity at all times? At first that suprised me seeing as your such a golfing Europhile but now I remember you're the guy who doesn't notice golf architecture just flags!

So you say you like RCD? That's odd as that course is just about the King of perpetual blind shots---and some of the coolest I ever saw!

[jim_lewis]

It seems to me that several of the holes mentioned so far are not great holes although they may appear on outstanding courses. Number 18 at ANGC is a pretty mediocre hole that  probably would never get discussed if found on another course. Also, many of the holes mentioned are only slightly uphill (ANGC #7 and 14).

I can't think of a single hole that is seriously uphill that I consider to be great, if taken out of the context of the rest of the course. Just because a hole in found on a great course does not make it great. I'm talking about holes that are seriously uphill most of the way from tee to green. In fact, some of the worst holes on otherwise pretty good courses are straight uphill. Sometimes the course is routed that way deliberatley to get the finishing holes(s) back to the club house. The 18th at the Barton Creek Foothills course is the best (make that worst) example I can think of.

[ForkaB]

Tom

I played RCD when you were just a pup (as they would say in NI....).

Bob

It's the only Wittgenstein that I can understand.  No wonder he made it the last sentence of his book!

[BCrosby]

Tom -

You rightly point out a hole in my architectural education. I blame the Philadelphia air traffic controllers. BTW, do they still staff the tower there with high school kids looking for after-school activities? Because nothing else would explain how hard it is getting in and out of there.

I actually think the 2nd green at PV makes my case. It is a big, generous, symmetrical green, but with fascinating internal micro-contours. At least as far as my air sick eyes could tell.

Bob

[Phil_the_Author]

The 15th hole at Bethpage Black may be the toughest par-4 anywhere, yet it goes uphill only the last third of the hole. The 4th hole is uphill all the way as even the raised championship tee is slightly below the first plateau.

The best uphill hole at Bethpage though, may be the 5th hole on the Red Course. This was one of Tilly's favorite par-fives. A long uphill sloping left-to-right fairway that ends in a green tucked back in the trees. Miss the fairway on the right with your drive and you have a very short lay-up that leaves a long third. Left off the tee and you are in deep rough. Center fairway gives the big hitter a run at the green in two, but this is a very low percentage play with disaster lurking if missed.

By the way, there are no fairway bunkers on this hole.

It is a must play hole on an unappreciated course that deserves consideration for ranking in the top 100 public courses.

[TEPaul]

"Tom
I played RCD when you were just a pup (as they would say in NI....)."

Oh yeah? I played that course more times than you could count at that time, and before they could find long pants small enough to fit you--you sniffling little weisenheimer!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Lewis,

You need to get to eastern Long Island.

NGLA

# 2, # 3, # 8, # 16, # 18

Shinnecock

# 9, # 10, # 11, # 12, # 14

Friar's Head

# 1, # 7, # 13, # 14

It would be interesting to hear from Tom Doak regarding Sebonack's uphill holes.

I'll throw in the 6th, 9th and 18th at Mountain Ridge,
The 11th and 13th at Preakness Hills
The 4th and old 8th at Montclair, 1st nine.
The 7th, 8th and 9th on the 2nd nine
the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th and 9th on the 3rd nine and,
the 4th, and 6th on the 4th 9
The 3rd, 9th, 16th and 18th at Essex Fells
The 2nd, 7th, 9th, 12th, 14th, 17th and 18th at Essex County.

# 9, # 13 and # 18 at Newport.
# 2, # 6, # 11, # 13 at Seminole.
# 18 at Pinehurst # 2.
# 2, # 15 and # 17 at Pine Valley.

Since many golf courses were built on fairly flat terrain, especially old farms and coastal areas, uphill or downhill holes are not found within the topography.

# 18 at NGLA may be one of the finest par 5's anywhere, uphill, downhill, sidehill or flat, and # 8 has to rank as one of the best par 4's anywhere.

[jim_lewis]

Patrick:

OK, OK, OK, so you reminded me of a few!. I never said they didn't exist, only that I could not think of any. Actually, I have played most of the "great" courses on Long Island, and I don't agree that some of the holes you mentioned are "great". Frankly, I don't even particularly like #2 and #3 at NGLA, and I don't think PVGC #15 is "great" hole, just to name a few. I'm not crazy about #15 at Bethpage Black either although I do think #4 is great. Actually, I use the term "great" very sparingly. That may be where we differ a little.

I play #18 at Pinehurst #2 quite often and I never think of it as being seriously uphill. I suppose that's why I often fail to hit enough club.

Actually two of my favorite holes at Forest Creek are uphill. #3 on the South course is a fairly short par 5 with three diagonal cross bunkers about 100 yards short of the green.  #12 on the North course is a medium par 4 thats plays longer because of a huge sand waste that fronts the left side of the hilltop green. Looks a little like a hole at Friar's Head.

Damn, I hope this does not start an argument about #2 and #3 at NGLA. The one thing worse than praising Fazio on this site is to criticize NGLA. ps: I don't like #1 either!

[JESII]

I can't think of a single hole that is seriously uphill that I consider to be great, if taken out of the context of the rest of the course. Just because a hole in found on a great course does not make it great. I'm talking about holes that are seriously uphill most of the way from tee to green. In fact, some of the worst holes on otherwise pretty good courses are straight uphill. Sometimes the course is routed that way deliberatley to get the finishing holes(s) back to the club house. The 18th at the Barton Creek Foothills course is the best (make that worst) example I can think of.

Jim

What does "seriously uphill" mean? Is there an actual minimum elevation rise to qualify for this argument? Are there any "great" downhill holes that meet the flip side of your "seriously" word.

Rich Goodale

Do you not get a charge out of trying to hoist a ball up onto the 9th at Shinnecock? I find that hole one my favorites. Just to be argumentative, is #18 really uphill at all?

[Jim Bearden]

Mark,

Some of this must be an artifact of how architects route the golf course. William Flynn was pretty unconventional in his routing style.  He would route all over the place, up and down hills straight on or on diagonals.  He has a number of uphill par 4s and par 5s throughout his portfolio.  

Maybe the single course that represents this best is Rolling Green GC in Springfield, PA.  Ran thinks this course embodies Flynn's general design principals better than any he has seen.  Par 4 uphill holes include 4,8,11,12,15 and 18 (sometimes it plays as a par 5, though it should always be a par 4).  Uphill par 5 holes include 9 (620 yards with a steep left to right slope for most of its length),17 and 18 (when it isn't a par 4, which should be never).

TCC, Brookline
Shinnecock Hills
Lancaster
Lehigh
Philadelphia Country
TCC, Pepper Pike
Indian Creek (completely man-made island with elevation rise to 35')
Manufacturers
Huntingdon Valley
Eagles Mere Old and New Courses (New Course had 2 par 4s each with climbs of 120')
and many more have such features.

It must be difficult to tie these in to the routing progression so that the walks are not too severe and the holes flow well in the overall structure with proper balance and degree of difficulty.  I think Flynn was a master at this and it is one of the design features that attracted me from the very start.

The Country Club Peeper Pike up hill holes?
1 elevated green
2 drive to fairway same elevation as green
3 down hill
4 slight elevation
5 downhill
6 slight up hill
8 down hill
10 down hill
11 par 3 elevated green
12 downhill
13 slight up hill
15 down hill to small valley or to elevated fairway green elevated or same
16 slightly up then down (my sisters and I used to ride our horses on this hole)
17 slight up hill (Palmer drove the green and a couple years later Jack tried but didn't make it)
18 Elevated tee a very gradual uphill shot at best

Now I didn't play it alot but as I recall Pepper Pike Club also by Flynn has a lot more elevation even though they are side by side.

[ForkaB]

Jim

I do get a charge out of hoisting my balls up in the air, on golf courses and elsewhere.......

If I'd played SH more than once I could answer your specific question re #9 better.  However, having hit driver/driver to tghe front of #18, it sure as hell better have been very much uphill as well as into the wind......

[JESII]

Jim

I do get a charge out of hoisting my balls up in the air, on golf courses and elsewhere.......

If I'd played SH more than once I could answer your specific question re #9 better.  However, having hit driver/driver to tghe front of #18, it sure as hell better have been very much uphill as well as into the wind......

If I were you, I'd find someone to do my heavy lifting for me, and no I'm not volunteering   .

Re #18: it may be a bit uphill from the tee to the fairway, but is virtually level to the green other than some undulations both up and down.

[jim_lewis]

JES II

Now you are going to make me think.  I do not have a standard in mind for what constitutes "seriously" up hill (or downhill for that matter). I knda know it when I see it. If on the approach to the green I can't see at least half of the flag stick, I guess that would  be seriously uphill. Some holes
 which  most are familiar with that don't qualify are #7 and #14  at ANGC and #18 at Pinehurst #2.  I think there is a better chance for a downhill hole to be great because there usually is a chance to roll or bounce the ball onto the green.  #2 at ANGC is "seriously" down hill and an excellent hole. #10 is also seriously downhill. #11 is close. Then there is Ran's favorite, #18 at Kapalua Plantation.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There are lots of great uphill approaches to greens - this website is littered with references to skyline greens.  It's not a skyline green but I love the uphill approach to the 10th green at Royal Troon - I get to play it from the members' tee up on high ground when I think it's a great hole.  From the championship tee down in a low, damp corner I think it's ghastly.  

At Swinley Forest there some excellent uphill holes - the 7th, for example - with the uphill approach to the double-dog-leg par-4 12th one of the best shots of its kind in England.  The 16th at North Hants, 16th on the Blue Course at the Berkshire, 16th at Wentworth West, 13th at St George's Hill, 9th at Liphook, 13th Walton Heath Old, 7th Royal Ashdown Forest, 7th at West Sussex, 12th at Isle of Purbeck, 12th at Burnham and Berrow, 12th Stoke Park, 7th Goring and Streatley, 14th Moor Park High Course, 10th Little Aston, 12th Sherwood Forest, 11th Notts, 7th Luffenham Heath, 6th Hunstanton, 6th Aldeburgh, 18th Thetford, 9th Prestbury, 10th at Sandiway, 5th Cavendish, 1st Delamere Forest, 3rd and 11th Wallasey, 7th Formby, 13th Silloth, 13th Brampton, 9th Slaley Hall Hunting Course, 10th Seaton Carew (Brabazon), 2nd Pannal, 16th Maesdu, 17th Bull Bay, 17th Llanymynech, 4th Welshpool, 13th Southerndown, 9th Royal Porthcawl, are a few in England and Wales that cannot all be great, though some are, but they are uphill holes I really look forward to playing.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I'm looking at a topographic map of TCC, Pepper Pike.  The 3rd hole rises 25 feet, the 4th hole rises 40 feet, the 13th rises 25 feet and the 15th hole landing area is 15 feet above the original Flynn tee and the hole is 35 feet above the Flynn tee.

My recollection was the 17th hole was above the tee, but it is not; it is even.

You're right, it is not a great example of elevated holes.  But it does have some, especially on a course that only has about 45 feet of elevation change from the lowest point to the hightest on the course.

[Lou_Duran]

I used to be of the Goodale/Nicklaus school which prefers a couse to be opened visually and inambiguously in front of you.  Presently, I do enjoy some blindness, including two or three uphill holes with fortress or skyline greens.  #17 at Black Mesa is one such hole with a par of four; #5 at CPC (a hole that Rihc doesn't care for) is a very good par five of this kind; and I've always enjoyed the two-tiered par three #17 at Scarlet from the lower tees.  Variety is the spice of life, and courses with two or three drop-shot par threes are not as enjoyable.

[Jim Bearden]

Jim,

I'm looking at a topographic map of TCC, Pepper Pike.  The 3rd hole rises 25 feet, the 4th hole rises 40 feet, the 13th rises 25 feet and the 15th hole landing area is 15 feet above the original Flynn tee and the hole is 35 feet above the Flynn tee.

My recollection was the 17th hole was above the tee, but it is not; it is even.

You're right, it is not a great example of elevated holes.  But it does have some, especially on a course that only has about 45 feet of elevation change from the lowest point to the hightest on the course.

Wayne I think it depends on what point you are looking from if you are looking at 3 from the tee yes it is uphill but from the fairway it plays down hill. However if it has been changed I haven't played it in 25 years. I feel that an elevation change of 25 feet is negligble over distance. I would like to discuss Country in a seperate posting as it is an interesting course. Have you played Kirtland CC now thats got some elevations.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

Agreed.  I think Country is a very nice course, I'd drive from Philadelphia again to play it.  And if I do, I have been told by several that Kirtland CC is terrific.  A friend that plays out that way suggested that it has one of the best 9 hole stretches (I forget if it was the front or back side) he could name.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Lewis,

I could see how you wouldn't like # 2 and # 3 at NGLA, they're blind, although, at different ends of the hole, but when you said you didn't like # 1 I have to assume that you've only played the golf course once, or very few times.

Some people recognize and appreciate the genius in the design early, others, like TEPaul, may never see it, or need a guide dog to point it out to them.

I suspect, that the more you play NGLA the more you'll discover the genius of the architecture.  For some the process is short, if not immediate, for others, like TEPaul, it takes a lifetime.

How could you not LOVE the risk rewards on the tee shot ?

The options of play on the approach, so dependent on hole location and your decision and execution off the tee.

It's simply brilliant.

TEPaul,

Is Coorshaw for rent on a daily or weekly basis ?

If so, contact Jim Lewis.

[Jim Bearden]

Jim,

Agreed.  I think Country is a very nice course, I'd drive from Philadelphia again to play it.  And if I do, I have been told by several that Kirtland CC is terrific.  A friend that plays out that way suggested that it has one of the best 9 hole stretches (I forget if it was the front or back side) he could name.  

Back 9, as front while a challenge and very interesting the back 9 is something to behold especially from an uphill hole perspective and downhill.

[jim_lewis]

Patrick:

You are right about one thing. I have played NGLA only once. When I played I was travelling alone so they took me out to the 5th tee to join a threesome in progress. For the next 14 holes, I thought the course was great, everything it is touted to be on this site. After the 18th I went back and played holes #1-4 by myself. After the thrill of playing holes 5-18, I must say that 1-3 were a letdown.  My only complaint with #1 was that I could not see any reason to hit a driver, and I have a bias against openning holes that take the driver out of your hand. I think I would like the hole better if it fell later in the round. Maybe I'll appreciate it more if/when I play it again.

BTW, I've been waiting for Tom Paul to offer this zinger, but since he has failed me, I'll try my best T Paul imitation. Here goes. Patrick, after playing Pine Tree and Garden City as much as you do, all holes must appear to be uphill to you, except those that seem downhill.

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