Why Are There So Few Great Uphill Holes?

[Mark_F]

Excluding par 3s, why is there a comparative shortage of uphill par fours and fives?

On the Sandbelt, I can think of RM West 11, RM East 2 - one of the best Sandbelt holes, according to Mike Clayton - KH 7 and Yarra Yarra 5. I also like Victoria's 11th, but I'm not sure many others do.

Overseas, I can only think of Sunningdale Old's glorious 10th, Porthcawl's 5th, and Silloth's 13th, although I quite like Gullane Number One's 2nd also.

Is this the same on the classic US courses?

Do any of them have one or two great uphill holes?  

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Some of this must be an artifact of how architects route the golf course. William Flynn was pretty unconventional in his routing style.  He would route all over the place, up and down hills straight on or on diagonals.  He has a number of uphill par 4s and par 5s throughout his portfolio.  

Maybe the single course that represents this best is Rolling Green GC in Springfield, PA.  Ran thinks this course embodies Flynn's general design principals better than any he has seen.  Par 4 uphill holes include 4,8,11,12,15 and 18 (sometimes it plays as a par 5, though it should always be a par 4).  Uphill par 5 holes include 9 (620 yards with a steep left to right slope for most of its length),17 and 18 (when it isn't a par 4, which should be never).

TCC, Brookline
Shinnecock Hills
Lancaster
Lehigh
Philadelphia Country
TCC, Pepper Pike
Indian Creek (completely man-made island with elevation rise to 35')
Manufacturers
Huntingdon Valley
Eagles Mere Old and New Courses (New Course had 2 par 4s each with climbs of 120')
and many more have such features.

It must be difficult to tie these in to the routing progression so that the walks are not too severe and the holes flow well in the overall structure with proper balance and degree of difficulty.  I think Flynn was a master at this and it is one of the design features that attracted me from the very start.

[Donnie Beck]

I have always thought the 18th at NGLA was a pretty good hole.

[Kyle Harris]

Augusta: 7, 8, 9, 14, 18...
Oakmont: 3, 9, 17
Merion: 10, 16, 18

Just to name a few...

[TEPaul]

My course (GMGC, Ross, 1916) had two holes (#8, #9) whose second shots were massively uphill---maybe 50-60 feet. They were apparently deemed too hard for women and such. The thing that made them extra hard was that elevation was pretty abrupt. So both greens were basically brought down the hills.

When I wrote a design evolution report of the course I asked the oldest member why those greens were brought down the hills and he said the members did not like trudging up those abrupt hills. When I pointed out that the members still had to do that to get to the next tees he just stared at me! (For some reason that fact had apparently not occured to the club when they moved those greens down the hills!).  

And then our 18th green is about 75 ft above the tee (but in two levels---eg to a high fairway ridge then back down into a valley and way up to the green. This finishing hole is a 421 yd par 5 causing Tom Doak to call it "the most amusingly short par 5 of his acquaintance."

(Amazingly, that fine researcher, Steve Sayers of LuLu, found an original scorecard reprinted in a newspaper the year after the course went into construct (1917) where that 421 yd hole was labeled a PAR 4!!! (in effect it plays like about a 450 yard hole)).

[Mike_Sweeney]

Merion: 10, 16, 18

Are they really uphill holes? The 10th tee sits pretty high, and a 3 wood leaves you with a shot from the upper tier of fairway and a flattish shot.

Same with 16, a second shot uphill, but the drive is downhill.

18 tee is uphill. but second shot can be from a bunch of spots, and I would call these holes "Roller Coaster" rather than uphill.

I think Mark was talking more about Alps-like holes with continuous uphill climbs such as National 16 and 18 Yale 12. Not sure if National's Alps qualifys as the tee shot is slightly downhill. Same with Bethpage 15.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Good points, and you can include Augusta's 9th in the "roller coaster" camp.

Bethpage Black's 15th would probably qualify, even though the tee shot is fairly level. Bethpage Black's 2nd as well. No?

[mike_malone]

 Slightly OT, but for Wayne---how about you always play RG#18 as a par four and I'll play it as a par five. Let's see what difference that makes!

[TEPaul]

Mike:

#10 Merion is not really uphill. As you say it just plays across a valley. But the second shot into Merion's #12 is certainly uphill. #14 Merion is actually uphill but very gradually. #15 green is uphill but the hole is pretty short (or used to be until this year ). The 15th green was actually supposed to be a conceptual copy of an Eden green but the replication of it was criticized early on by someone like Travis as being too severe of green surface. It certainly is severe of green surface with today's speeds---and so obviously is #12 green. Basically on those two greens if you aren't somewhat below the pin you really can have a major league problem (like keeping the ball on the green!)

[PThomas]

Pasa, the 11th, the longest 385 yds I have EVER played!

a few others there qualify as well, like the par 3 3rd

[Chris_Clouser]

Just go to Oklahoma (or wherever else he worked) and visit almost any Perry Maxwell designed course.  He had a penchant to design loops of nine with elevated first tees and uphill holes to complete the loop.  Examples include:

Southern Hills
Indian Hills (now called Cherokee Hills)
Dornick Hills
Oak Cliffs (Dallas)
Old Town Club (Winston-Salem)

He also tried to have at least one other hole in the round that went up hill.

I think there are several examples of excellent uphill holes in the US.  One of my personal favorites is the 2nd at Crystal Down.  

[Bill Gayne]

The 11th at Tralee has a great hill

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I disagree with the premise.

[Sam Sikes]

I feel like the uphill approach shots at Kinloch are its biggest strength.  The 2nd, 6th, 9th, 10th, 16th, and 17th all play slightly uphill, and I feel that they are some of the best/toughest shots on the golf course.  I believe Nicklaus said that uphill shots are indicitave of a poor routing, but I can't think of a single great course that doesn't have any, thus I wholeheartedly disagree.

[TEPaul]

Here's a real uphill hole and all the way. The very long (from the original back tees) 12th at Moselem Springs (Geo Fazio). But ultimately, it seems like time has shown it really isn't very interesting and probably is in fact what once was referred to as "a slog".

On the other hand, PVGC's #15 is uphill all the way and is ultra long, but the second shot is pretty nuancy, the third shot could be considered great and the green is spectacular with about 1/3 of the front section being unpinnable and "false", and the remaining 2/3 being exceedingly interesting and challenging (and of course if you miss the green long "forgetaboutit").

For some reason this hole has become considered really great by some and not particularly interesting by others (perhaps even a slog). The latter group may object to the fact it really isn't that strategic as it's often very hard to make a par on it or even hit it in regulation three. It is more in the manner of the old-fashioned super "shot-testing" hole but if one wants to make a par or better on it---it actually does become exceedingly strategic the nearer you get to and then on the green. Just having your third shot touch that green is definitely not the proper goal.

[jeffwarne]

I agree with Patrick-I can think of dozens

[Scott_Burroughs]

I also think there are plenty of great uphill holes (in the U.S., at least).  Many of my favorite holes are uphill or at least have uphill approaches, which are often at least semi-blind.

One of the best:  #2 at Pine Valley.  #17 is also pretty good.  This is strictly from walking the course only, though.

Kyle,

I didn't know that #18 at Augusta was considered great.  I've never heard anyone call it that.  

[wsmorrison]

"Slightly OT, but for Wayne---how about you always play RG#18 as a par four and I'll play it as a par five. Let's see what difference that makes!"

I'll have to use a lot of small words to explain it to you    

I'll just go to the same printer Tom Paul goes to for his new NGLA cards and get some made up for my guests and I for our rounds at Rolling Green.  We can both be happy; me in my sophisticated understanding and you in your ignorance  

[Tom_Doak]

Paul Thomas:

That eleventh hole at Pasatiempo is 80 or 90 feet uphill from tee to green, so it plays 80 to 90 yards longer than the scorecard says.

Mark F:

Simply put, most golfers like to see their ball land on the green, and when you're playing uphill more than about ten feet on your second shot, you can't tell where the ball lands.  However, a slightly uphill hole generally affords the most possibilities for dramatic bunkering.

[Tyler Kearns]

Tom,

Good call regarding No. 11 at Pasatiempo, it looks a lot shorter than it plays. I'm not sure if the deceptive nature of this hole should be credited to Dr. Mackenzie for locating it on the property, or to the house at the end of the fairway . Regardless, a great hole!

TK

[T_MacWood]

Good question. While the 18th at Pinehurst #2 and Sand Hills are both well concieved and good looking...I'm not crazy about either hole. I wonder if less strenuous uphill holes have a better opportunity to be tagged as great.

[Kyle Harris]

Scott,

I consider it great because it's the finishing hole at Augusta moreso than anything. I actually think it would play better if the bunkers were to be negotiated with a decision instead of avoided.

[Mark_F]

Patrick Mucci:

Which part of the premise do you disagree with?

Should I have put 'great' in there somewhere? I'll answer that myself.  Yes!

Tom Doak:

But then you can't see where your ball lands after a blind drive, either, and that doesn't stop people liking those holes.

Where is the spirit of adventure gone?

Wayne Morrison:

I should have remembered the Rolling Green profile I've seen here.  Thanks for the answer.

Do the people who play the course complain about the uphill shots, or just accept them for being good holes?

[Wayne Freeman]

It might take weeks to list all the great par 4's and 5's around the country.  Just off the top of my head I'm reminded of several already mentioned at Pine Valley, Merion, Lancaster, Philly CC, Bethpage.........  and what about Spyglass and one of the best par 4's in the world-  the 18th at Riviera?  There's no shortage in my book.    

[ForkaB]

To me, for a hole to be "great" it must contain a number of desirable characteristics, including visibilty.  It is hard to make an uphill hole with adequate visibility whilst not sacrificing other important characteristics (e.g. playable green contours, width, variety of hazards, etc.).

Compare and contrast 9 and 18 at Shinnecock.  One is uniddimensional--whack it down the fairway as far as you can and then try to guess which long iron to hit to a completely blind green.  The other requires shaping the tee shot in relation to your capabilities, and then visualising a shot (from a number of possible shots) to an elevated but visible green.

To me, one of these holes is great, the other is just very interesting.

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