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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
what's Fazio's best course???
« on: April 17, 2005, 10:04:07 PM »
hello all

the W Woods/P Valley thread made me think of this one and would love to her your opinions?  Shadow Creek?  W Woods?
another?

pt
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2005, 08:49:54 AM »
My favorite Fazio track is Victoria National.
Mr Hurricane

JDoyle

Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2005, 09:03:24 AM »
I suspect that Sage Valley will continue to rise in the rankings as more raters get inside the gates.  It has plenty of what they generally like....a visually appealing course, Augusta like conditioning and VERY private.  It was recently ranked #2 in state by South Carolina Magazine.  I would not be surprised it it surpased Shadow Creek in a few years.

As for Pine Barrens - anyone who has played a Mike Strantz course before should recognize his work.

The rankings aside, I thought Forest Creek was very good.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2005, 09:11:40 AM »
Jonathan - Your post tells me you probably need to play more Strantz courses. Maybe you were thinking of Black Diamond?

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2005, 09:23:28 AM »
The last I checked Sage Valley wasn't allowing GD panelist play. I think they may have been upset they didn't win "Best New" in 2002 (GC at Briar's Creek won and Sage places 7th). I played both and liked Sage Valley a little more. It was a nice course and if you call that "eye candy" then so be it.
Mr Hurricane

JDoyle

Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2005, 09:41:53 AM »
SPDB,

I have played a limited number of Fazio courses, however, I do not remember any holes like #15 at Pine Barrens - a choice from the tee to go for it all to the right and try to drive the green or play it safe out to the left fairway.  If there are examples of Fazio building such "risk it all" holes I would be interested in some examples.  Strantz includes those styled holes consistently - #5 at Tobacco Road comes to mind.

Hurricane,

I actually enjoyed Sage Valley very much - I did not mean to imply I did not.  Just a few comments on why I think over time it will rank at the top of his list of courses.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 09:42:54 AM by Jonathan Doyle »

Matt_Ward

Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2005, 09:58:44 AM »
I have had the pleasure in playing 55+ TF courses. Of that grouping I would include the ones below as my personal favorites ...

Group One (listed in no particular order)

Glenwild (Park City, UT)
Dallas National
Karsten Creek
World Woods / Pine Barrens

Group Two

Victoria National
World Woods / Pine Barrens
Galloway National
Black Diamond / Quarry

Honorable Mention

Shadow Creek
Wade Hampton
The Estancia
Forrest Creek
Pinehurst # 8
The Quarry at LaQuinta


*I have not had the opportunity thus far to have played Sage Valley or Diamond Creek. Two of the more noted TF courses I have on my golfing agenda.

The issue with TF courses is that many follow a similar pattern of design -- more style than depth -- more beauty than brawn. There are differences from time to time.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2005, 10:07:32 AM »
Jonathan -

You seem to imply in the first post that World Woods bears Strantz's mark. A statement I find odd, given that Strantz never worked on the World Woods project. By the time construction started, he had been gone from Fazio's fold for quite some time.

So in response to your question, I can think of at least one "risk-it-all" hole that Fazio has designed:

 World Woods-PB #15.  ;D

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2005, 10:15:04 AM »
Matt,
Please tell me about Karsten Creek.  What makes it so special.
I had assumed I'd never want to play there from some local comments - not the treehouse.
Thanks.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Matt_Ward

Re:what's Fazio's best course???
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2005, 10:29:35 AM »
Mike:

Karsten Creek is a different animal than the pro-forma TF design. It doesn't focus the bulk of its effort on the "eye" aspect. The intensity of the shot values you encounter is also much greater. In sum -- the course / land has substance and the TF approach there is generally subdued.

You won't find the "Broadway" theme show that typlifies so many of the TF creations. From my understanding another associate -- no longer with TF -- played a major role with the creation of KC.

The course has a solid setting and the gentle rolling land makes for wonderful natural contrast that has not been pillored with all the "extra" touches that TF has been known to employ to "wow" the customer / owner.

Karsten Creek doesn't suffer fools either. That's one of the appeals for me although the qualities of the course go beyond simple toughness. The course is quite strong and when it hosted the NCAA Championships a few years back no one was torching the place at will. KC could very easily host a tour event and even possibly a major if so inclined.

Karsten Creek gets "lost in the sauce" because the "bells & whistles" approach that has become de rigeur is not found there -- that's one of its primary appeals to me. Unfortunately, the name TF has become the poster child for all that many here on GCA deplore -- the "extras" have become distractions and take away from the value of what a given piece of property possesses. That's far from the case with Karsten Creek.

One last thing -- although the course is "open" to the public the tariff to play is quite steep. In my mind, when great college courses are discussed you can throw Karstem Creek right to the top with such gems as Yale, Stanford, etc, etc.

It's a solid layout and something that TF clearly showed me he is capable in delivering far more than what is being churned out at will today.

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