[Sean_A]

The thread on weak holes got me to thinking about links with no weak holes.  After playing Hoylake this weekend it crossed my mind that it has no weak holes in my estimation.  There are a few that are tough to love, maybe the 1st and 16th (not because of OOB, but because they are flat with few features), but are they weak?  I don't think so.  This strikes me as perhaps a wee bit unusual for links.  Any links you lot can think of without weak holes?

By the by, I have been wrong about Hoylake.  It most certainly is a great course.  I have never been that taken by it until now.  Maybe what people say is true.  Familiarity breeds fondness.

Ciao

Sean

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

What are the weak holes in your estimation at Turnberry? I think I recall you thinking that it is overrated.

The other ones I thought of were Ballybunion and Dornoch.  I put 1 at Dornoch in the same caliber as 1 at TOC, more just a breather to start, although the green at Dornoch is more difficult.

[Jack_Marr]

Many people think the opening six holes in Ballybunion are weak, n'est pas?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Troon in tournament conditions is nothing but razor-sharp teeth.  Proabaly the same goes for Carnoustie.  In a stiff breeze, the inward half is a collection of nine "hardest holes" for any other golf course.

JC

[Jack_Marr]

Jack

This is probably where the relative terminology kicks in.  Are the first six of Ballybunion weak compared to the other 12 or just weak?

Ciao

Sean

Hi Sean

I think they are just visually weaker than the other holes, but not to play. The caravan park does not help.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Of course as the "weak" thread established it is all a matter of opinion...but in answer to your question...and imho..
Royal Birkdale
Portmarnock
Western Gailes
Turnberry
Lahinch
Hillside

all fit the bill.

[Robert Thompson]

I think Kingsbarns fits this bill -- as does Carnoustie, which starts and never lets up.

[Doug Siebert]

I agree the caravan site does not help aesthetically.  I have a particular aversion to them because it seems they always get ripped during tornados.  I prefer to stay well clear of them.  Portrush and Dornoch have a bit of a caravan nightmare happening, though not to the extent of Ballybunion.  Jack, has the town gotten any better?  Last I was there Ballybunion didn't even have a decent restaurant.

They have tornadoes in Ireland??

[Doug Siebert]

Apparently so.  Learn something new every day.

http://www.irelandphotography.com/weather/

[Doug Siebert]

The thing I was most surprised about when I googled for "ireland tornadoes" and found those pictures, was another link I found that stated the UK was actually the most tornado prone country in the world when adjusted for size!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Ireland has tornadoes, or that the UK has more than the US by area, since the media tends to sensationalize tornadoes in the US, and especially Oklahoma and Texas so much.  But neither of those states is in the top two for most tornadoes by area.  My home state of Iowa is #2, which might be a small surprise for non-residents but it is in the Midwest.  But the far and away leader is not in the Midwest, and is probably a great surprise to some.  It is of all states Florida -- because hurricanes sometimes spawn lots of small tornadoes just in case the hurricane itself isn't already bad enough!

[ForkaB]

Tornadoes (Dan Quayle, help me out with the spelling if you're lurking!) happen over here all the time.  We call them "5-6 club winds".........

[Mark_F]

Sean:

I'm the opposite of you.  In my admittedly brief forays into the UK, I thought all links courses had at least 3-4 fairly ordinary to outright weak holes.  

For instance:

All bar 12 and 15 at Royal Birkdale.

Do you count the middle section of Formby as links?

The last two at Macrihanish, as well as 9?

The first two at Nairn, as well as 15, I think, and 16?

12 and 17 at Royal Porthcawl?  Or are they just fairly ordinary?

7,8, 10 and 11 at Burnham and Berrow?

Everything at Royal St Davids, bar 15 and 16.  Although Harlech really isn't a true links, is it?

Two courses which I really liked, and didn't have any weak holes, maybe just a couple less ordinary, were Seascale and Silloth - but maybe that's just because they were a rather unknown and entirely pleasant surprise.

And then there's Tain,which, to me, is composed almost entirely of weak or ordinary holes, but has a few beauties like 5, 11 and 15 whcih are worth the journey.  

Or would be if you didn't have a dozen whisky-sozzled, bleary-eyed Americans stumbling around the course in front of you.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jack,

I consider #6 at Ballybunion a great hole, but agree that many people miss its virtue altogether......not the locals, of course, who well appreciate how tricky the pitch to the green can be.

I've also never thought of #1-3 as weak.

The big question is with #4 and #5......the least interesting land on the property. I'd add, however, that a poor tee shot on #5 very quickly turns what seems to be a simple hole into one far more challenging.

[Doug Siebert]

I could see calling Ballybunion's first weak (even if you could remove the ugly view)  Its hard to call the 3rd weak given that its fairly long and plays into the prevailing wind.  The 4th and 5th are weak unless you get off the tee badly like Tim says, and the view off to the right certainly leaves something to be desired.  I can't fathom anyone thinking 6 is weak, given what the prevailing wind does to your choice of line off the tee, with the deep grass to the left/short and the OB to the right/long.  And I invite anyone want to go out there and walk around that green on a day when the wind is blowing 40-50 mph and try to figure out the risks/benefits from all the possible angles you could approach that green from and still maintain the hole is weak!  But compared to what happens when you hit the 7th tee and are right on the sea....Ballybunion starts to really go full tilt then so I guess by comparison, yes, the first six are "weak".

Interesting story on the 5th.  When I was there last summer as we were approaching the green a group of several dozen schoolgirls were walking by along the sidewalk on the other side of the fence.  One of my playing partners hit a pitch from about 70 yards that hit the stick and ended up within a foot of the hole and the whole group of girls was clapping and cheering quite loudly.  You know they love their golf over there when you see that, in the US on a course with a public road nearby you are you are lucky if you don't have every other person going by shouting "Fore!" and "You da man!" randomly and thinking they are the most original wit on the planet.

[Jack_Marr]

Yes, they have tornados over here, but they are tiny - more like zephers. There was a "big" one here this year that caused some damage, but again, this was nothing compared to the ones you get in the U.S.

Tim - Didn't Watson change these first six from the last holes to the first ones? If so, he must have done so to lessen their prominance in the memory of visitors.

[Andy Levett]

Good topic, but depends how you define 'weak' - which wasn't really settled on the other thread.
Part of the description of  a 10 in CG is something like 'if you miss one hole you will be missing something special in the world of golf'. By that definition of a 'weak' hole - one that's not 'something special' I can't think of a single links that doesn't have a weak hole. That includes the only 10s I've played, Dornoch and TOC. (At Dornoch the 7th is tough but not inspiring, at TOC 6 and 9 will both require more plays/study before I 'get it')
But as most responses on this thread are exempting a hole from being weak if its either inspiring or demanding,  I agree with Hoylake, Dornoch and Silloth and also suggest Portrush where only 17 and 18 are less than inspiring but tricky enough.

[Mark_F]

Sean,

I've noticed this bias against Porthcawl once or twice, what's going on?

I thought Porthcawl was one of the most inspiring and thrilling rounds it is possible to play.  And yet you obviously like Birkdale???

I quite liked Burnham and Berrow, aside from the first tee being so disastrously close to the members' lounge.  maybe I got the hole numbers wrong, but I didn't think so.

First three are terrific, also loved the 9th, then from the 12th on. Nice part of the country, too.  Wished Royal North Devon had been able to fit me in.

I also think Tain and Harlech surely tie for title of most uninspired and boring golf course?  Harlech is such a let down, especially after the view from the road above...

But at least Tain is worth seeing, I think, just for the amazing 15th green, one of the best in links golf, I think, and I thought the 5th was a really neat green complex too.  It's a pleasant round, either as a loosener-up for delights further up the road, or as a wind down after.

I'd like to try Hoylake, but I fear by next trip, the green fee will be 200 quid.  Isn't it well over 100 now?  Ridiculous.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

For me Southerness is a delight.  There are no outstanding holes, but no weak ones, either.  I think it's the marriage of the course, its condition, the setting, its reasonable green fee and the fact that it's always been just about empty when I've played there that makes it special for me.  Silloth is terrific - I'm not sure there aren't weak holes - I'm going there next week so I'll be able to remind myself.  Seascale was mentioned earlier.  I love it, but I think the couple of holes out and back beside Sellafield are dull.  True, Harlech doesn't occupy the most exciting dunes (Pyle and Kenfig is another) but I find it a good test, the setting is unique and I'm not averse to flat holes.  Porthcawl for me is magic, but I could understand long hitters finding it tame - Tiger Woods hated it.  

Has anyone mentioned St Enodoc in this post?  There's not an uninteresting hole on the course, although I concede that some may be child's play to you low handicappers.  Much as I love Burnham and Berrow there is a slight sense of disappointment when you leave the dunes around the 7th and 8th.  It's not that the course is any easier, just that its nature changes.

I'm glad to find someone else singing the praises of West Cornwall - it's full of character and there are several oustanding holes.  I'd play it in preference to Trevose, but I know Paul Turner would disagree with me.  maybe I should go back.

To my taste Brancaster has few weaknesses, if any, but it's probably too short for you boys.  

Has anyone mentioned Rye?   Not much weakness there.

Sadly, I have to agree with you about our green fees.  Most are now way outside my pocket, and I don't just mean Open venues.  Even most humble courses in Cheshire are beyond my means these days.

[Mark_F]

Sean,

I've played Silloth, which is absolutely first class.

It's quite beautiful, as well as having any number of first-rate holes, with only one or two around the turn a little ordinary.  

Don't miss it.  Seascale is in another, slightly harder to get to part of the Lake District, and is a little 'scruffier', but there's some terrific stuff there too, I think.  3,4,6,7,9,10,14,15 and especially 16 are all great holes to play.  Super friendly members and staff,too.  

You can even play on a Saturday for the unbelieveable bargain of 27.50.

I've played Southerness, and, in some ways, it reminds me a little of Harlech.  Flattish, all long fours, five par threes and a solitary par five, but I think it's a better course.

As Mark R said, it's quite a lovely setting, a little isolated and off the beaten track, friendly staff, nice little town, all of which adds a little extra to the experience, and help offset it's relative blandness, but there are some good holes.

Well worth the visit if you are up in the Lake District.

I did quite like Burnham -it's a fairly inspiring place to play, I just thought a few of those holes around 7 and 8 were a bit plain, but some lovely stuff there.  9 is brilliant, equal of 17, I thought.

Strangely enough, on my recent trip back to the UK, all of the courses I played, from memory, had a first tee perilously close to the amused faces in the club bar, whereas I can't seem to remember those from my previous trip being so horrific.

For a first tee experience, you can't go past Southerndown, though.  Tee shot straight up the Matterhorn, five feet from the clubhouse window, and, most likely, several woolly four-legged creatures occupying the rest of the tee.

Neat course, too.

Hope you get to play Machrie and can give us some feedback.  

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